1858 New Army, sticking cylinder

prontow

Inactive
New to black powder and am really liking my Pietta new Army revolver. I am experiencing a common issue with the cylinder getting real tight after about 5 shots. I am using Goex powder and wonder wads between the powder and ball, nothing in front of the ball. I am making sure I had the cylinder pin lubed good but I guess it was getting blown out.
Lots of expertise here and I am looking for some suggestions.
Different powder? (Triple seven)
Lube in front of the ball?
Thanks from "The new guy"
 
What are you using to lube the cylinder pin? Petroleum based lubes will gum up with black powder fouling. I spray my cylinder pin with PAM non-stick cooking spray, the olive oil based stuff, just before I shoot.
 
grease is best for the cylinder pin in my experience. Oil doesn't seal as well. Just make sure its synthetic grease.
 
I put a little auto transmission fluid on my fingers and then spread it on the cylinder pin.
That plus 777 powder does the trick.
Shoots all day without a hitch.
777 shoots clean, no stink and less of it is needed - what's not to like.
 
Good that it sounds like proper lubrication of the cylinder pin is what I need to focus on. I have been using petroleum based lubes on the pin, mostly gun oil. I even tried the Traditions brand Wonderlube 1000 Plus. All with the same result. I will get some of the Olive Oil based pam(Wonder if pure olive oil would work...hmmm) and I happen to have 100% pure silicone lube used for O-Rings. It is in a tube and is a heavy grease consistency.
I finally looked at the stickey(So you want a black powder revolver...or something like that) and I will start lubing my wonder wads with the formula given in the thread.
Cannot wait for another opportunity to go shooting, I can tell that black powder is a bit addictive.

THANKS!!
 
What you do with the wads has no bearing on the cylinder sticking, but it doesn't hurt to lube the wads.
You want grease on the cylinder pin. Fill the small grooves at both the front and back, at least some in the middle. Petroleum based or not irrelevant. Yes, petroleum based gums up quicker, but packed in the grooves won't matter.
I used to shoot a pair of Pietta 1860 Army revolvers in Cas. No wads, no grease. Conicals with the lube grooves filled with home brewed lube over powder and capped. Would run all day, meaning 6 stages, with only wiping off the sides of the hammer.
 
There must be more in the PAM spray than just olive oil, but I can go about 3 cylinders with GOEX 3f before I have to wipe and spray more PAM on the pin. YMMV. I never put grease on the pin at all. Too messy. Another thing to check is the barrel cylinder gap. .006 is about right, even wider is ok. If it's too narrow, that can cause binding as well because of the fouling on the cylinder face, but that's not usually the problem.
 
I don't have the .44 Remington NMA but I do have the Remington .36 Navy.

I've used a mixture of 1 lb Crisco melted and mixed with 1 beeswax toilet bowl ring (the old style beeswax ring - not new style scrap wax) for years. I use it to grease my cylinder pin and also use it over the ball in each chamber. I can go through 6 to 8, possibly more, cylinder full of rounds and not have a problem.

I have heard that some of the things suggested work good as well. My Remington Navy worked very well from the "get go" - but, perhaps your cylinder/cylinder pin tolerances are just a shade tighter as well. I've burned a lot of pounds of DuPont/Goex over the years and like any powder, different "lots" sometimes are a little dirtier than others. The important thing is to keep your fouling soft which is why you use the lube in the chambers, etc. Other things that can affect the fouling are the weather as well. Years ago, I just used Crisco over the chambers but in hot weather, that's a scratch. One shot and it's running all over everything! :D Humidity levels will affect it as well (fouling).

Try the suggestions and see what works best for you. Don't let it frustrate you -- you may just need to put a couple hundred rounds through it before it settles in. When you clean, make sure you clean the cylinder pin hole in the cylinder well too. The Remmie NMA is a nice revolver - enjoy and good luck!
 
Hey thanks for all the suggestions. I will take this and start trying all of the suggestions and I will try and keep up with the data and get back with what seems to work best for me. I know every gun is different and well as shooting conditions but I like troubleshooting(sorry for the pun) and this will be a good learning experience with my new gun.
I will continue to use GOEX powder throughout the entire process so I don't skew the numbers, plus I have a pound of it to use up. After that I might try some triple seven, if I can find it in my area.
One advantage is Dixie Gun Works in Union City is about 40 min. away and has all of the black powder supplies I will ever need.
 
I have 7 Remingtons and an 8th on the way. My Uberti 44s will gum up after firing 1-3 cylinders full depending on whether I am shooting 20grs or 30grs of powder. My Euroarms Remingtons will go 5-8 cylinders full before gumming up. I don't know why the difference. What I do is keep a small plastic squeeze bottle of olive oil (use whatever veggie oil you want) in my shooting box and I put a single drop of oil between the cylinder face and the frame and twirl the cylinder to work it down onto the pin. It takes about 5 seconds to do and will keep the guns running til something else becomes a problem. Also I use a lubed felt or fiber wad under the ball and AUTOMOTIVE GREASE on top of the ball and on the cylinder pin. All the grease and lubes keep the guns running. The oil bottle trick is simple, fast and clean: you do not need to pull the cylinder pin out to wipe it off and get your hands all black & grimey.
 
Howdy

Welcome to the world of the 1858 Remington. These guns had a 'design flaw' that was later corrected when the Model 1875 cartridge revolver was introduced. The problem is the lack of a bushing on the front of the cylinder to protect the cylinder pin from being coated with fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap.

What happens is Black Powder fouling is blasted out of the gap at high pressure. It gets deposited on the cylinder pin and works its way down the pin between the pin and the cylinder. The fouling quickly builds up a hard crusty deposit. This is what causes the binding.

Later guns, including Colts, corrected this problem by putting a bushing on the front of the cylinder to shield the cylinder pin from the fouling blasted out of the gap.

Here are a conventional C&B cylinder as well as a cartridge conversion cylinder for a Remington. Notice they are flat across the front.

Cylinders-2.jpg




Notice how the cylinder butts right up against the frame. There is nothing to prevent fouling blasted out of the cylinder gap from being deposited directly on the cylinder pin. Yes, this is a cartridge conversion cylinder, but the idea is the same.

Remington1858closeup.jpg




In this photo you can see the cylinder bushings, left to right, on an Uberti Cattleman, Ruger Vaquero, and 2nd Gen Colt.

cylinderbushings.jpg




Here is a closeup of the cylinder bushing on an old Colt. Notice how the barrel is set back into the frame, creating a gap between the cylinder and the frame. The cylinder bushing takes up the extra space. The bushing completely surrounds the cylinder pin. This puts a horizontal separation between the barrel/cylinder gap and the spot where the cylinder pin emerges from the bushing. This protects the cylinder pin from fouling blasted out of the b/c gap. I can shoot this old Colt all day long with Black Powder, as long as I use a BP compatible bullet lube, and it does not bind up.

bushingcloseup_zpsc288bae3.jpg




OK, so how come the Colt replicas, which also do not have a cylinder bushing, can run longer without fouling than a Remington can? Two reasons. First off, the arbor of a Colt is larger in diameter, effectively spreading the fouling over a larger surface area. And the Colt has a helical clearance groove milled into the arbor. This gives the fouling blasted onto the arbor someplace to go, so it does not build up and bind the cylinder as quickly.

arborandpin.jpg




OK, enough about the problem, how about a solution? One solution is to install a bushing onto the cylinder of the Remington cylinder. This has been done and it does work. However it is expensive. A bushing has to be fabricated, the cylinder needs to be milled to accept the bushing, and the frame has to be relieved to accept the bushing.

Another simpler, marginally effective solution is to cut clearance grooves onto the cylinder pin. I cut these grooves by chucking the pin in a drill press and holding a file against it while it turned. The idea is you goop up the pin with lots of BP compatible grease, I use Bore Butter but any BP compatible grease will do. If you have a lathe you can do a better job cutting the grooves. The grooves could be cut a bit deeper than I cut them, to hold more goop, but don't cut them too deep or you will weaken the pin. This solution is not great, but it does help keep a Remmie running longer.

arborandpin02.jpg


The bottom line is, unless you install a bushing in the cylinder, you will never get a Remmie to run as long without binding as a gun that has a cylinder bushing. Cutting clearance grooves will help, but not a whole lot. The best thing you can do is to keep the pin well greased, so that when the fouling reaches the pin it will remain moist. Moist fouling is a better lubricant than hard crusty fouling.
 
Any grease works until you get a burr. You have to pretty much move it every day or 2. What I don't like-- "Bout these guns" is that you can't look down the barrel without a pin light to check it right and putting the cylinder in can maybe be easy on some and a pain on others

WBH
 
Finally got to go and shoot my New Army again today, here are some results.
Last night I cut some felt patches and soaked them in the Tallow, Paraffin, and Bees Wax mixture. Loaded my first cylinder up with my new patch without any additional oil on the cylinder pin. After six shots the cylinder was still smooth as silk.
Loaded my next six with Wonder Wads, and a drop of olive oil on the cylinder pin. After the 5th shot the cylinder was getting pretty tight and after the sixth shot it was pretty much frozen.
Pulled the cylinder out, wiped everything down and reassembled.
Next six I loaded my patches with tallow mixture and a drop of olive oil on the pin(to see if the olive oil was reacting to the black powder in any way to make the cylinder stick).
All six shots smooth as silk.
My conclusion is as the powder is burned in the cylinder the wax mixture on the patch melts and coats everything with a small layer of tallow and wax as it travels down the barrel.
I still have some playing around with my new gun but looks like the tried and true mixture does what it is supposed to do.
Thanks to everyone for the advice and information, great to be part of a community that is so willing to help out the "New Guy"!
 
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