1856, 44 Navy Colt reproduction accidental discharge.

O

Ozzieman

New member
1856, 44 Navy Colt reproduction accidental discharge.
Surprised the heck out of me. Yesterday I was out with a gun that I purchased when I was 16 many MANY years ago. It was the first time I have had it out in some time.
I cleared all 6 chambers but had a little trouble getting one chamber to seat but it fired on the second time around. Fired another cylinder primers only and had no problems.
Checked it all out and everything looked good so I loaded and fired the 6. Two chambers took two hits to set off. These were new primers and the 30GR charges. So I check the gun and made sure there the action was cleared of fired primers and loaded her again.
That was when the problem started. I had one chamber that wouldn’t go off and it locked up. The hammer was on the primmer but wouldn’t come back far enough to rotate the cylinder.
So I held the hammer back and lightly tapped the wedge so that I could get the chamber out of the gun. This went well and I noticed that the primer was deformed on the nipple from being hit several times and off center.
I was nervous about pulling off a hot primer with the cylinder in my hand so I reassembled the gun with the loaded round away from the hammer but first made sure that the action was clear and working.
I got the gun back together and ran the action till the same round came up and again it failed to fire and locked up the action which meant that the hammer wasn’t going down far enough to unlock it. So being extremely careful and keeping the gun pointed down range I held the hammer as far back as I could and using a small straight slot screwdriver tried to push the primer off the nipple.
Loud bang and a cloud of smoke and a hole in the ground about 10 feet in front of me.
I was no worse for wear other than the thought of maybe needing a new set of underwear. Didn’t even get powder burns from my hand being that close to the end of the chamber.
They were the correct primer and there was only one other person at the range who was a friend and I had him get well back from the firing line when I started having problems.
Anyone have a similar discharge of a primer just from trying to remove it?
I still had hold of the hammer, my thumb was wrapped around it to keep it back and no finger on the trigger so it was the action of removing the primer that set it off.
One thing is for sure, I think it’s time for new nipples.
 
Wow, I think that I might have tried to very gently remove that deformed primer while the cylinder was out, by pushing the edge of the primer skirt (edge closest to the cylinder) off with a pocket knife. But VERY slow and working around it, holding the cylinder at arms length with thumb and finger toward the primer end.

That way if it discharged, maybe the ball would head downrange and the cylinder wouldn't hit you. That's a tricky situation and how to handle depends on what tools you brought to the game. I have a piece of brass rod for pushing out balls from the cylinder, and a wood dowel for pushing a stuck ball out of the barrel. But I think I would have tried the knife in this case.

Others might have better thoughts. Glad that you were not hurt. It's good of you to share the experience though...might help us think of the best action when in that situation.

You may want to check the hammer face as well as replacing the nipples.
 
I got the gun back together and ran the action till the same round came up and again it failed to fire
Click to expand...
Wonder if it was a delayed action hang fire and not the prying off of the primer that caused it to go off.
 
If you were trying to pry it off from the bottom of the cap I don't see what could have set it off. Caps are not pressure sensitive, it takes a relatively sharp strike to set them off. But if you were trying to pry across the top of the cap with a screwdriver I can see where it might have.
 
delayed action hang fire It would have been a very LONG hang fire.

pry across the top of the cap I was using a very small jewelers screwdriver and placed it at the sharp edge of the primer and worked from one side to the other trying to wiggle it off. It was only the 2nd or 3rd time that it went off. I don't know if it slipped off or not.
Thanks for the suggestions.
 
One thing to add, when I cleaned the gun tonight it seems that the hammer is not moving smoothly when you ride the hammer down. This was without the cylinder. But when I installed the cylinder it did cycle with no problems.
I'm going to completely dissemble the action tomorrow.
If I find something I will let you know
 
1856 Navy? I'm assuming that you mean a 1851 Navy?

You say you had to have several double "hits" in order for them to go off. If you have had the pistol for a long time - perhaps you ought to think about a new set of nipples if you haven't changed the out? Also, be looking at the cap to nipple fit to make sure the caps seat on the nipples all the way.

You could have a number of things going on as well. If the cylinder "locked up" - what size balls are you using? Are you getting a good lead being when you seat? 30 grains in a 44 of that design is about the max that the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook lists so your chamber has to be pretty full. With that load, are you sure you aren't getting any "bullet jump" in adjoining cylinders? i.e. the ball moving forward which can lock up the cylinder? In a C & B there is no "crimp" like there is on a cartridge to prevent that in a wheel gun.

You mention that you also feel some resistance in the hammer fall. Any chance of a burr or crud holding things up? A weak hammer fall can also prevent a crap from going off no matter how well it fits or is seated on the nipple.

I can't imagine a "hang fire" . . especially with the delay time you describe. Nor a cap going off by pushing it on the skirt to remove it. sIt sounds like you need to disassemble that revolver . . . make sure it is squeaky clean and that there are no burrs, etc. to hang things up on the hammer fall. Then, make sure your nipples are in good shape. Those caps should go off overtime the hammer falls.

Good luck! :)
 
I've seen priming compound smeared onto the inner walls of the cap. It is possible that the blade scraped some of that which may have been on the shank of the cap and lit it off.
 
Never can tell about a hang fire.
When I attended muzzle loading matches, there were occasional hang fires that were plenty long enough to surprise everyone in the vicinity.
After the shooter held the gun, waited with no result, and put the gun down on the bench.
That'll make folks jump good.
It's just possible that loosening the primer could have let in enough extra air to do the job.
One thing I've learned in messing about with guns is that nothing is impossible.
And the reasons for obeying the safety rules always.
 
Coupla thoughts....

Too late now but, Might have removed the barrel and left the cylinder on the arbor with the barrel off. Accomplishes two things:

1. Reduced velocity if the weapon discharges (which it did)
2. Allows you to put the cylinder back at the three o'clock position so you can get to the primer at the primer notch.

Caution - With no barrel, there is no tellin which direction the ball will go if it fires. The definition of "downrange" become a little broad.

When you look at the nipples, make sure:

1. They are all the same length....I have had numerous pistols in which one or two nipples were different lengths, even on supposedly unfiddled-with revolvers.
2. Make sure all of the nipples are snugged down. A nipple that is too far out (because it has not been turned into the cylinder completely) will cause problems.

You did say that the pistol cycled with the cylinder in place so they can't be too far off. On the other hand if it was clunky with the nipples capped, the nipple might be over-sized or not completely installed and the cap might be engaging the frame of the pistol. That would explain the odd marks on the cap.

The situation you described is very scary..
 
Too late now but, Might have removed the barrel and left the cylinder on the arbor with the barrel off. Accomplishes two things:
Click to expand...

Hmmm. I don't think it's ever a good idea to have a loaded, capped cylinder out of a gun or loose on the arbor, for exactly the reason you stated. That sucker is an extremely short-barreled revolver and if you drop it and it lands on a cap(s) there is no telling where it will go off to.

Essentially, it's a Ketchum Hand Grenade.

I would fully expect the velocity to be sufficient to be fatal.

You should never cap loaded cylinders that are not in the gun, and for the same reason you should never remove a loaded, capped cylinder from a gun.

Steve
 
Clarification

I don’t want to take a chance on anyone missing my point. Thinking I am recommending they do something that is unsafe.

I was responding to this situation and this situation only when I postulated that it might have been wise to remove the barrel leaving the cylinder in place while the cap is fooled with while the chamber in the out of battery position. I stick by that statement.

Let’s examine what happened and why I proposed that action (belatedly).

1. OP has problems with the pistol cycling and firing. Original thought was that the source of the problem centered on the primer. OP was concerned about tampering with the cap for fear of an unintended discharge (which eventually did happen.)

2. OP disassembled the pistol and at least looked at the cylinder while it was out of the pistol. So the decision to handle a cylinder outside of the pistol with one capped and loaded chamber had already been made. (More correctly, it had been thrust upon the OP.)

3. OP reassembled the pistol including the barrel with the offending chamber out of battery and attempts to remove the bad cap. (That is where my concern begins.)

4. OP cycles the chamber into the battery position and once again attempts to remove the cap. Pistol goes off and fortunately it did so while in battery. I say “fortunately” because it means that the ball traveled down the barrel (the normal mode) rather than the side of the barrel lug which is what would have happened had the offending chamber detonated in step three above.

I didn’t say this in my recommendation rationale (because I thought it was assumed), but my primary concern was the pistol going off, fully assembled with the chamber in such a position as to send the ball down the side of the barrel. Two negative things might happen under those circumstances:

1. The ball’s trajectory is even more unpredictable as it impacts the barrel lug or the wedge.

2. The pistol might suffer damage because of the forces exerted where they don’t belong.

The discharge of the chamber out of battery has approximately the same effect as a chain fire of one out of battery chamber. (Notice my use of the word “approximately”). I have had this happen once in my life. I know that the ball fragmented because there were pieces of it still smeared over the barrel lug. I have no clue where the rest of the bullet went. None of it hit me but had someone been standing beside me (which never happens) they could have been seriously injured. I am pretty sure none of the ball hit the wedge either since there was no evidence of that happening.The pistol was a .36 cal brass frame 1851 Colt. The pistol was damaged in that the arbor was knocked loose. The damage may have been the result of:

1. The extra force of two chambers going off at one time.

2. The force of the chain fired ball hitting the lug where it is not supposed to

3. Both

I agree that the reduction in velocity is not sufficient to eliminate danger, only to reduce the danger.

I also agree that it is dangerous to handle a loaded and capped cylinder outside of a revolver. I don’t tell people they shouldn’t do it, just as I don’t tell people they shouldn’t speed, or shouldn’t smoke. I only recommend; a) understand the danger, and b) be careful.
 
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Doc Hoy wrote: The pistol was a .36 cal brass frame 1851 Colt. The pistol was damaged in that the arbor was knocked loose.
Click to expand...

Same thing happened to me Doc back in 1970 with a .36 1851 brass framed Colt. Scary. Thankfully, that was only time it has happened to me in over 45 years of shooting cap and ball revolvers.
 
I went through

a lot of years shooting with never a chain fire. Then there was a long hiatus and I picked it back up. This pistol was one of the first ones I acquired when I started again.

The pistol was ungodly accurate in my hand. I put the first four shots from the pistol into a four inch tree in my backyard at about ten yards. It just seemed right.

Then this chain fire occurred.

I know it was loaded right but I had to pinch the caps in order to get them to grab the nipples. Chain fire from the back rather than the front, I am pretty sure.

When it did, I checked to make sure the serial number on the pistol was not 666.

I thought for sure the pistol was haunted.
 
Doc, as I dimly recall, I too, was pinching caps when it happened, CCI's as I remember. Never have liked CCI caps. I use Remington No. 10 caps these days.
 
Chain fires is an interesting topic

It doesn't really fit with this thread but it generates a lot of interest and some good anecdotes.
 
Hang fires, chain fires, think I'll just take up archery.
I've had a couple, but the worst kind of chain fire never happened.
The one where the bottom chamber goes off and the ball hits the frame.
It was always the upper ones and they made it safely down range.
Surprising but no harm.
 
Thanks everyone for their input. At the time I felt that trying to remove the hot primer was best done with the gun assembled and in battery. My biggest fear was that if the gun had gone off while being off line of the barrel it would have been to close to my hand. I also never even gave a thought to trying to clear or fire the gun with the barrel removed. I felt that this would have been too dangerous.
No matter what, it was a dangerous situation. I felt at the time the way I handled it was safe, or as safe as could be.
One thing for sure, it was not a hang fire. A good 10 minutes passed between the last time the hammer struck the primer till I tried to remove it from the nipple.
I dissembled the gun this morning and the only thing I found was that the gun had gummed up a little. Once cleaned and oiled the action was a little smoother. The nipples on this gun are not original, I replaced those years ago and they were the correct ones at the time. Two of the primers do look a little flattened but I can't be sure they were the one that wouldn’t fire.

Its been so long ago that I really don't remember what it was, Navy, 51 or whatever
P.S. Back in the 90’s this gun and another pair was used in SASS and were shot a lot. Never had this kind of issue and never had a chain fire. I have never used wads and always used grease on each chamber.
Two other things this time out. This was the first time I ever used CCI caps. In the past I always used Remington No. 10.
 
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Ozzie....

You have been doing this BP thing for a long time and my sense is that your actions do indeed represent the right way to go about it.

It is what I would have done because, like you I would not have anticipated in my wildest dreams what actually happened.

Who would have thought that merely removing the cap would have set it off!?


This situation really handed you some curves.

As I look to the future, I will consider the possibility the that might occur in one of my own pistols and try to keep it in battery as you did.

On thing I did not think of......

If merely jostling the cap to get it off caused it to detonate then might it have gone off during the process of taking the pistol apart or putting it back together?

With ones hand firmly grasping the barrel, cylinder out of batter, what a nasty picture that paints.....
 
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