185 vs. 230 gr. .45ACP

S

stevieboy

New member
I'm a believer in the general rule that "lighter = lower". At least that's so with .357 Magnums and, to a somewhat lesser extent, with .38 special. I find that, for example, at 10 yards, 125 gr. Magnums, traveling at about 1500 fps, shoot at least 2 inches lower than 158 gr. Magnums, traveling at about 1250 fps. At 25 yards, the disparity is much more pronounced, being about 4".

The explanation I've been given for this phenomenon, and which I believe, is that the lighter rounds travel faster and, therefore, exit the gun more quickly, thus getting out of the barrel with less recoil influence than heavier rounds. Since recoil causes the muzzle to flip upward, lighter rounds are less influenced by that flip.

So, my question is: does this hold true, generally, with factory 185 gr. .45ACP? I've never fired anything except the 230gr stuff and I just took advantage of a bargain offer to order some 185gr in bulk. Should I expect it to shoot faster, therefore lower, than the 230 gr. ammo?
 
Yes. Given the same amount of powder the 185 will a bit lower.

Not going to be a truck load of difference though.
 
It depends on the loadings you're comparing. If they're both standard pressure, I would expect some difference in the POI, but not a large one. If we compare, for example, WWB 230grn JHP to 185grn Silvertips, we find that the lighter bullets are only going 120fps faster (advertised velocity of 1000fps for the 185grn bullet as opposed to 880fps for the 230grn bullet)

If, however, you compare a standard pressure 230grn loading to a +P 185grn loading, the difference may be more significant due to a larger velocity spread. For example, If you compare the 230grn standard pressure Remington Golden Saber to the 185grn +P Golden Saber, you will find that the velocity difference is 265fps (advertised velocity of 1140fps for the 185grn +P as opposed to 875 for the 230grn standard pressure).
 
The lighter rounds will generally strike lower on the target than a heavier round. This is independent of velocity. In other words, no matter the velocity this is the case.

tipoc
 
230 or 200

The big question is did they or did they not perform experiments with above mentioned bullet weights on goats? I've just got to know before I can make up my mind.
 
This is independent of velocity.

I don’t believe that is true in all cases.
If you take two bullets of the same weight and drop them from the same height they will hit the ground at the same time.
If you take those same two bullets and fire them out of the gun at different velocities and take the recoil out of the gun completely. The slower one will hit lower since it takes longer to get to the target and has more time to drop further.
Comparing lighter faster vs. heavier slower vs. higher lower is an experiment in frustration.
It’s also why they put adjustable sights on guns. You sight the gun in for the round you carry.
In your case with the lighter bullet with the same pressure it will hit lower due to the recoil and time in the barrel, which I do agree with. But its point of aim when the bullet leaves the gun that makes the point of impact.
 
Well, yes, a slower bullet will hit lower -- eventually. But, at 10 and 25 yards (which was the basis for my original question) no, a slower bullet will actually hit consistently HIGHER. Why is that? Because faster bullets take less time to exit the gun. In the instant after a gun is fired a lot happens. As the bullet travels down the barrel the hot gases created by the discharge actually push back against the gun. That's what's meant by recoil. Pushing back against the gun generally causes the muzzle to rise relative to the plane in which the gun was held as the gun is fired. In other words, even as the bullet travels down the barrel, the barrel is moving upwards. Faster bullets leave the gun more quickly so, there's less muzzle rise and, therefore, they tend to hit lower.

As I pointed out in my original post, that's a well-documented fact with .357 Magnums. .357 is my primary shooting caliber. 125gr. Magnums, which travel at about 1500 fps (slower or faster depending on barrel length) get out of the gun much more quickly than relatively slower 158gr. Magnums. And, the 125 grainers reliably hit lower as a consequence.

Now, I admit that there are variables that affect this phenomenon. A bullet gets out of a 1 7/8" snubbie a lot sooner than it does from an 8 3/8" gun. Therefore, there's less time for the barrel to rise in a snubbie and, I would think, less of a difference in POI of relatively faster vs. relatively slower rounds.

But, the principle remains the same. My original question applies to 230 vs. 185 gr. .45 ACP. If, in fact, the relative difference in velocity between the two rounds is slight, as a one or two of you have said, then, there shouldn't be that much difference in POI. Remember: it's not the weight of the round that matters in determining POI. It's velocity.
 
185g vs 23g recoil

On the recoil issue.

I was shooting 185g and 230g in my G36 the other day. I could not tell the recoil difference. I am sure if you blindfolded me I could not have told you what I was shooting.

Hitting the target. Well, I could not see a lot of difference on how I was hitting the target. I seem to hit center of mass (about 7 yrds.) reasonably well with both loadings.
 
Stevieboy:

If we take two rounds, for example the 185 gr. Speer GDHP at 1050 fps at the muzzle and the Speer GDHP 230 gr. load at 890 fps from the muzzle and shoot them from the same gun using the same point of aim the lighter bullet will strike the target from 2" to 4" lower at 25 yards. It will do this for the reasons you explained in your post #9 above.

To Quote from Robert Rinker's useful work "Understanding Firearm Ballistics" pg. 318...

If two bullets are fired at the same velocities, but one is much heavier than the other is, the recoil will be heavier for the heavier bullet. With the same velocities, they will reach the muzzle at the same time, but with a higher kick and jump, the heavier bullet departs with the barrel at a higher angle. The impact is therefore higher.
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Rinker goes on to explain that if we add powder to the lighter load so that the jump from recoil is the same as the heavier we have increased the velocity of the lighter load and it's recoil. It still leaves the barrel sooner than the heavier round and with the barrel at a lower angle still. The increase in velocity, in general. will not alter the fact that the lighter bullet will impact lower on the target. Unless you adjust the sights of course.

You can see this difference best if you shoot from a rest at 25 yards and beyond. The difference can be 2-4" at 25 yards between a 185 gr. load and a 230 gr. load. The increased velocity of the lighter load makes little practical difference on the poa-poi. I've seen the difference be about 2" at 15 yards depending on the gun. This is shooting at a target of course. For defensive shooting, at closer ranges as madmag says above, it may make little to no practical difference.

Increasing velocity for the lighter load increases muzzle flip but the round also exits the barrel sooner than the heavier round which spends more time in the barrel and which means a higher point of impact. So in general you can see that while velocity is a factor it is the weight of the bullet that most consistently determines poa-poi variations.

Now if you were to play around with this some and make a light slow bullet and a heavier faster one, change the powders a bit, experiment with bullet weights, etc. you can either increase or decrease the poa-poi results. But in general what you said in your above post is true and remains so.

It's useful to go to a range with a few boxes of each weight ammo and shoot from a rest at 25 yards and from your guns see what the results are. I've done this over several trips to the range with different guns and calibers. It's a fun way to spend an afternoon.

tipoc
 
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The big question is did they or did they not perform experiments with above mentioned bullet weights on goats? I've just got to know before I can make up my mind.
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Perhaps you're thinking of this:
It was the cartridge tests conducted by Thompson and Major Louis Anatole LaGarde of the Medical Corps in 1904 at the Nelson Morris Company Union Stockyards in Chicago that resulted in the adoption of the .45 caliber as the official U.S. Army handgun cartridge. They tested various calibers on live cattle, deer, and human cadavers to determine the best load. From these tests it was determined that the .45 was the most effective cartridge for a handgun, but with reservations. In their report, they state:

"the Board was of the opinion that a bullet, which will have the shock effect and stopping effect at short ranges necessary for a military pistol or revolver, should have a caliber not less than .45". But they also said, "...soldiers armed with pistols or revolvers should be drilled unremittingly in the accuracy of fire" because most of the human body offered "no hope of stopping an adversary by shock or other immediate results when hit."

In response to the Ordnance Board’s specification, Browning designed the .45 ACP for the pistol he was submitting to the board. Browning’s first loading was a 200 grain bullet running at 900 feet per second, but the Army wanted a larger bullet. Browning responded with the loading we have today, a 230 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of 830 feet per second.

http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/45acp.htm
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The Strasbourg Goat Tests. See, http://www.thegunzone.com/strasbourg.html. First read the page and determine whether it's worth your while to read the entire "study." The writer there notes:
[T]he data is of limited and academic value… most detractors who, up until this moment have never had an opportunity to examine the original document, attempt to make more of "The Strasbourg Tests" then they themselves ever purported to be!

Now they can see for the first time for themselves, the critical language in the document:

…it was concluded that the most effective ammunition available for an unobstructed lung strike is the high velocity type which uses pre-fragmented or fragmenting projectiles or those types that cause immediate expansion on impact.4
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Not "center mass," not "pericardial sack," not "pelvic girdle," not "head shot," but "lung shots!"
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You guys are above my league. Too much data, and I am a retired engineer.

I shoot 185g and 230g at combat range. I seem to hit well with both and I am sure a human target would feel the effect with either. I happen to like the very smooth functioning of my Critical Defense 185g.

I don't doubt all the tech data, but for close range targets I don't think it matters much.:)
 
45 acp.......

To me it seems like cartridge pressure creates more flip than does a heavier bullet. Take a 45 long colt for example, you can shoot it one handed and accurately with 250 gr bullets, where a 357 with 125 gr bullets will buck and kick like a mule. I find the same thing with a 45 acp, to me they are easy to shoot ! 800 fps vs 1450 fps, which do you think will have more kick ?
 
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