1842 Springfield .69

M

Moloch

New member
I just ordered a Kimar .69 1842 Springfield smooth bore musket, very neat rifle and big heavy ball ammunition looks very scary.:D

The only experience I have with BP firearms is very basic so dont beat me for my stupid questions - I mostly shoot my .45 kentucky pistol with patched round ball with 24 grains of BP and thats it.

I am planning to shoot round ball through the Springfield .69 , but unfortunately nobody I know owns a black powder firearm bigger than .50 so I have absolutely no idea how much FF powder I should load for 480-490 grain lead round ball. Since the .58 gets a load of about 100 grains of FF for competition shooting I guess the .69 would work well with maybe 140-150 grains of FF BP?

Another question concearning the .69 1842', would possible to load it with buck shot / shot pellets or mabye even 5 or six small .32 BP ball? Or ist it possible to load it with buck shot + a .69 bullet? Its a smooth bore with a incredible long barrel (~ 42'') so I guess it would perform very well with shot pellets. I dont want to shoot it with that kind of ammunition every day, I am just asking if it would be possible and I would like to try it if its not dangerous for me or the barrel.

Thanks for listening. :)
 
The standard load for the Model 1842 was 80 grains. Using 100 grains in a .58 rifle musket may be OK with a repro, but I hope no one loads an original that hot; 60 grains was standard.

I don't see how shooting buck shot out of the musket could harm it, but the shot load shouldn't exceed the weight of the standard ball.

Jim
 
The standard load for the Model 1842 was 80 grains. Using 100 grains in a .58 rifle musket may be OK with a repro, but I hope no one loads an original that hot; 60 grains was standard.
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Of course its a replica!

Wow, I didn't know that standart loads were that weak, some BP shooters here load their .58 enfield repro for competition at 120 yards with a 525 grain projectile with 100-115 grains of FF behind it! That thing is louder than some
.300 win mags!:eek:
 
Smoothbores work fine with shot. Generally you start with a shot payload equivelent in volume to your powder charge. For example, 80 grains powder, same volume of shot. To tighten your pattern, either reduce the powder, or increase the shot. You'll need the proper over powder wads/cards and overshot cards, but it'll make a dandy shotgun. Don't try to create "magnum" loads though, as pressures go up fast when you're pushing that much shot.

As for starting loads for patched ball, 75-80 grains is about right. Start there and work up in 5 grain increments until you find the load that shoots best for you. Generally you don't get the best accuracy at max loads anyway, so I doubt that anything over 100-110 grains will be of much use.

You can also use buck and ball loads. I've never shot them, but it's 1 full size ball plus 3 buckshot pellets or so.

If you'd like to get some advice from the real experts on smoothbore shooting and some info on accuracy and load development, I'd suggest popping over here.http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/fusionbb.php?referral/9048/
These folks really know their stuff! If you sign up through that link, I get a referral credit. I have no idea what they're for, but I figure it can't hurt to have a couple. :)
 
Thanks, your informations about loading shot are very helpful! :) I'll try it out, I wonder how the shot pattern will be with barrel that long!

As for starting loads for patched ball, 75-80 grains is about right. Start there and work up in 5 grain increments until you find the load that shoots best for you. Generally you don't get the best accuracy at max loads anyway, so I doubt that anything over 100-110 grains will be of much use.
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I am much more afraid of blowing the barrel up with too much powder than having the wrong charge for good accuracy. ;) But it sounds that something between 80 and 100 should be useful for accuracy beyond 50 yds.

You can also use buck and ball loads. I've never shot them, but it's 1 full size ball plus 3 buckshot pellets or so.
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That leads me to another question: shot pellets behind or in front of the ball? I imagine the ball pushing the shot to the side damaging the barrel or the other way around.

I'd suggest popping over here.http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fu...referral/9048/ These folks really know their stuff! If you sign up through that link, I get a referral credit.
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Registered just a minute ago using your link, still waiting for the E-Mail though.
 
The shot loads will perform surprisingly well from that barrel. A lot of folks use their smoothbores to hunt with. Everything from turkey to rabbit to squirrel and dove. You won't get quite as much range as you would with a modern smokeless shotgun using tight chokes, but you can adjust your pattern using the powder charge or shot load to give you good results.

I can't offer any help on the buck and ball loads, but there are a lot of posts at muzzleloadingforum about them.
 
I could be wrong, but I'm guessing that the shot goes underneath in a buck 'n ball load. That way, the heavier projectile doesn't shoot through the buckshot, and the buckshot falls away sooner due to it's lighter weight and lesser inertia (momentum).
So if I'm wrong, go ahead & shoot me! Okay? :D
 
+P or magnum loosely speaking. Since Magnum is a term that only came up long after the black powder era was over, and +P was even later, neither would be appropriate for black powder loads. But people would still know what you mean when you say it.

Black powder doesn't generally make the pressure that smokeless will. But black powder guns are designed for lower pressures as well. You can still get in trouble with overloading one, black powder or no.
 
Hey Arcticap,

Nope, the way I've always read it is the large ball goes on top of your powder then the three .30 or .31 cal (I forget exactly) go on top of your .69 ball. All this on top of 80 grains FFg. What happens with the lighter balls underneath the large ball is the explosion actually forces the buck shot into the heavy round ball and distorts them and can cause bore problems. With the buck on top of the round ball you get a cue ball effect as the lighter buck loses velocity faster than the heavy round ball. The whole point of buck and ball was to get a spread. It was a military load meant to hit multiple targets at range.

I do remember that when in cartridge form the powder was on the bottom followed by a tie I think, then your .69 ball, another tie in the cartridge and your buck tied off on top of that. I may be wrong in that it was only tied off between the buck and not between the powder and large ball.

I do know that the wooden cartridge boxes were painted different colors for the .69s as well in the war. Green wooden ammo boxes were just standard ball, red was for buck and ball.

I shoot a repro .58 pedersoli 1861 springfield and I almost always shoot only the standard 60 grain FFg load if I'm shooting minie balls. 60 grains is quite enough for those big 450-500 grain minies. I only shoot real black. I have upped it to 90 grains when using a patched round ball just for fun and effect! More noise, more smoke, you know all the good stuff. :D

Was just at the range today with it and three of my cap and ball revolvers. I have really been thinking about getting an 1842 Springfield .69 smoothbore just to shoot buck and ball! It seems like so much fun. I'm seriously considering getting one myself one of these days.
 
I don't know how similar the performance will be as the one I shot was from Armi Sport and had a rifled barrel and sights added The 80 grain load was fairly energetic:
1842 Rifled 1175fps 1379ft/lbs 69" Ball
80 Grain
ffg
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One officer said there was little chance of hitting anything with the 42 musket and advised his troops to load double balls and hope for the best. Actual tests indicated a good bit better performance and gave the 42 a better chance of connecting with a soldier sized target at 100 yards when loaded with buck and ball.
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"buck and ball" shooting purposes. It looks a little like the original ctgs. the shot was widely scattered at close range from the rifled arm but might have clustered closer from a smooth bore.
the 42s were modified to shoot the bullet on the right- a .69 mini. Unfortunately, I could not find a modern source for these. I do think the rifle would have been much happy fun with these bullets. As it was, it was very gratifying to knock 69 caliber holes in things with the balls.
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Great pics mec, cant wait to get the .69 ball to compare it with a .45. :D I guess its a fair bit heavier than the .45, isnt the .69 about 480 grains heavy?

I don't know how similar the performance will be as the one I shot was from Armi Sport and had a rifled barrel and sights added The 80 grain load was fairly energetic:
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AFAIK the rifled version of the 1842 springifled only has only 3 rifling, I guess the smooth bore won't be a whole LOT more inaccurate. I'll give it a healthy load of 100 grains of FF since I heard that was standart load. Hope it wont knock my socks off. :D

Is the 1842 from Armi Sport a high quality rifle? I dont own anything from them so Iam very interestet of their finish/wood and steel quality. Looks very good at your pictures!

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Are these .69 minés?:eek: Holy sh.... how much do they weigh?
 
the armi sport was good quality. I had some samples of other guns made by euro arms and thight they looked a bit more authentic/better finish work but it was a decent gun. I believe the 69 minie weighs about 700 grains but my powder scale only goes to 500 so, I cant really can't get an accurate weight. The 480 or so sounds right for the ball.
 
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I have an Armi Sport 45/70 Sharps. The overall 'fit and finish' leaves no room for any improvement that I can see. The only defect in mine is it has a chatter mark in the rifling just ahead of the chamber, as if there was something on the pilot of the chambering reamer. Other than that, it's a beautiful, well made rifle.

Steve
 
MEC, two thoughts

Without a doubt, consistently fine composing of guns in photographs.

Also, pretty good shooting with that smokepole! :)

The Doc is out now. :cool:
 
not difficult. it was at 50 yards and I had a rest. If I was really in to cw period long guns, I'd have to figure a way to get a 69 cal mini bullet mould for this.
My experimentation with the 42 was part of a series of GUNs Magazine articles on civil war guns. I really enjoyed the .69" holes it knocked in things.

the text is available at findarticles.com Here's a link to one of them and the other two are there somewhere too. No pictures but you could search the archives on gunsmagazine.com for back issues

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_9_52/ai_n16547844
 
Okay, I went digging over at themuzzleloadingforum.com and found that while some people have reported good results with the buckshot on top, others claim that it either doesn't matter or that their results were the opposite.
However, there is a N-SSA reference link that indicates the shot is to be loaded below the ball (see Buck and Ball Load Section at the end). Note that there are buck and ball loads for both the .75 caliber Bess and the .69 Springfield, and I don't know if they're both the same. Read both threads entirely and you'll see what I mean about individual results:

QUOTE:

Buck and ball was the standard load for smoothbore muskets in the U.S. Army, as well as the Confederate. The cartridges were formed by rolling the tube, twisting and tying off one end, then placing three .31 cal. round balls in the end of the tube and tying a half hitch between the balls and the end of the former. Next a .650 round ball was seated in the tube and another loop taken with the thread between the .65 ball and the former, and tied off with a full hitch. The former is withdrawn from the tube, and a charge of 110 grains of black powder added before the tail of the cartridge is folded and closed.

To load and shoot, tear of the tail of the cartridge and pour the powder down the bore, then place the buck & ball, paper, string and all, down the bore and ram it to where it's fully seated against the powder charge.

It doesn't really matter if you load the load with the .65 bal on top of or under the buckshot. Personal experimentation indicates that if you load with the round ball up you get a little tighter pattern than with the round ball on the bottom. And yes, the paper and string do ignite sometimes and fall a short distance from the muzzle, which is why under dry conditions the woods sometimes caught fire during Civil War engagements.

The same charge was used in both the .69 flintlocks and percussion smoothbores, a reason for the heavy charge of powder being that the flintlock was primed from the cartridge before loading the rest of the cartridge into the bore.

12 gauge shotguns, commonly used in the Confederate ranks in the first year or so of the War, were able to use the .69 caliber cartridges, which made ammunition issue a little simpler.

Tom

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/f...5/post/413152/hl/"buck+and+ball+load"/#413152

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QUOTE:

Although we have used buck and ball at our Fort deChartres musket frolics, we didn't do it at our skirmish this time; but we understand others have tried it in N SSA demonstration matches. Buck and ball was, of course, the standard load for U.S. smoothbore muskets by the time of the Civil War. The round generally consisted of three or four buckshot, loaded in conjunction with a standard musket ball. While it is inconvenient (and actually not very effective) to use buck and ball routinely in skirmish competition, it is a heck of a lot of fun to issue a packet of three .30 caliber buck to each shooter at the start of the pigeon board relay. so that the first volley is the traditional buck and ball load. For those new to buck and ball, the .30 caliber projectiles go into the barrel first, followed by the musket ball.

http://www.n-ssa.org/SKIRMISHLINE/1997/nov97-6.htm


http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/f...0/post/250752/hl/"buck+and+ball+load"/#250752
 
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Thanks a lot for the help, now I have all I need to enjoy this rifle! Even if its stupid to shoot buck and ball I'll give it a try to get the idea how it was back in musket times to shoot with this load.

Just one more thing, how accurate do you think will the smoothbore rifle without sights be? AFAIK the old msuket balls were patched with the paper so the bullet had to be a lot smaller than the bore diameter, but I'll shoot a .675-.680 bullet with a very thin patch - that should improve accuracy a lot. Any ideas? Will it be fun at 50 yds?
 
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