bacardisteve
New member
Anybody ever reload the 30 cal ap bullets? Wondering if they behave more like a lead core or a copper bullet. Plan to run them in a 300rum behind a healthy dose of rl22.
162gr m2 ap
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They are long for their weight because the steel penetrator is less dense than lead. Long-for-weight means more spin is needed to stabilize them than would be needed for a 162 grain cup-and-core bullet. No problem for the 10" military twist in the Garand and Springfield rifles, as that's already fast, having been intended for 200 grain RN bullets in the 30-40 Krag originally, but retained for other 30 cal designs. If your rifle has a slower twist, though, check the stability calculator at the JBM site.
I understand U.S. snipers using 10" twists in WWII liked this bullet's slightly heavier predecessor (168-3 grains), finding it more accurate than ball ammo. I forget when the weight was slightly reduced, but seem to recall it was during the war.
I understand U.S. snipers using 10" twists in WWII liked this bullet's slightly heavier predecessor (168-3 grains), finding it more accurate than ball ammo. I forget when the weight was slightly reduced, but seem to recall it was during the war.
My experience loading them for 30-06 both for an M1 Garand and a bolt action using IMR 4895 in the Garand and IMR 4350 in the bolt rifle, is that they tend to be more like jacketed bullets. In my 30-06's load data for 165-168 grain could be safely used. No need to push them to super high velocities as they penetrate well at the original military velocity. The hard penetrator is about .244" diameter and weighs about 80.1 grains. Work up with 165-168 gr. data of course watching for pressure signs. They are longer than normal jacketed lead bullets so you need to determine a safe overall length for your 300 RUM and keep charges healthy and not extreme. They always warn to not shoot AP's at too close targets and I'd keep targets 200 yards and farther.
Unclenick,
I *think* the weight was reduce when the penetrator changed from a tungsten steel alloy to a hardened steel alloy, for cost reasons. Two different densities of penatrator made for the same exterior dimentions, just different weight. Been a while and my memory ain't what it used to be, so take it with a grain of salt.
Jimro
I *think* the weight was reduce when the penetrator changed from a tungsten steel alloy to a hardened steel alloy, for cost reasons. Two different densities of penatrator made for the same exterior dimentions, just different weight. Been a while and my memory ain't what it used to be, so take it with a grain of salt.
Jimro
I loaded some in 308 using Power pro 2000mr . Don't have my notes in front of me but I recall the load I settled on shot about 1.5 to 1.75 moa at 100yds with a avg velocity of just over 2600fps . I noticed the longer profile so I used the 178gr data in my Hornady book .
I don't recall where I read it but remember being surprised at the modest velocity the factory loaded 30-06 was getting . I want to say 2800-ish fps but not really sure . I do remember thinking 2600fps in my 308 was pretty good . I had a few loads faster but the groups were starting to open up if I recall ( sorry it was a few years ago )
I don't recall where I read it but remember being surprised at the modest velocity the factory loaded 30-06 was getting . I want to say 2800-ish fps but not really sure . I do remember thinking 2600fps in my 308 was pretty good . I had a few loads faster but the groups were starting to open up if I recall ( sorry it was a few years ago )
pctechdude
New member
Even at lower velocity they penetrate through thick steel and stainless steel plate. Never used them in 30-06, but in some limited testing we did, at 80 yards they punched through 1/4 inch stainless steel plate and kept on going.
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bacardisteve
New member
Thanks guys im still waiting for them in the mail so i didnt know they were longer but it wont be a problem. My rum has a 10 twist tube so i know i wont have any stability issues. I only got 100 of them more so just to experiment and see what they would do at the velocities a 300rum will launch them at. I have seen online where it has been done in a 300 win@ 3300fps so im thinking i can get about 3500fps out them. There is an old grader at the farm i plan to test there penetrating abilities on.
Jimro,
I think you are right. Tungsten is more dense than lead, so leaving it out of the alloy lightened it.
Bacardisteve,
I've found two references that say that bullet is 1.40" long. The JBM calculator puts the gyroscopic stability factor at 1.598 with a 10" twist and at 2770 fps MV (needed to be at 2715 fps at 78 feet, where the military measured it). Sierra long ago advised me that a stability factor of 1.3 to 3.0 was good for "hunting accuracy", while 1.4 to 1.7 was best for "match accuracy" and this bullet is right there. If I up the velocity to 3300 fps, the stability factor is almost 1.694. Still inside the best accuracy range at standard atmospheric conditions. This helps explain why snipers found it accurate.
You can drive it fast for fun. Figure, though, that accuracy may go south much over 3000 fps due to core stripping. The bullet was never made to start at over 30-06 velocities, and I can't say how it will keep together with high angular acceleration (rotational acceleration). If the core starts slipping inside the jacket due to over-acceleration, you'll see groups widen.
Also, the fast the impact, the easier it is for the bullet to turn sideways. So you may find the higher velocity better for armor plates or longer range, but that the bullet disintegrates and turn in wood at closer range.
I think you are right. Tungsten is more dense than lead, so leaving it out of the alloy lightened it.
Bacardisteve,
I've found two references that say that bullet is 1.40" long. The JBM calculator puts the gyroscopic stability factor at 1.598 with a 10" twist and at 2770 fps MV (needed to be at 2715 fps at 78 feet, where the military measured it). Sierra long ago advised me that a stability factor of 1.3 to 3.0 was good for "hunting accuracy", while 1.4 to 1.7 was best for "match accuracy" and this bullet is right there. If I up the velocity to 3300 fps, the stability factor is almost 1.694. Still inside the best accuracy range at standard atmospheric conditions. This helps explain why snipers found it accurate.
You can drive it fast for fun. Figure, though, that accuracy may go south much over 3000 fps due to core stripping. The bullet was never made to start at over 30-06 velocities, and I can't say how it will keep together with high angular acceleration (rotational acceleration). If the core starts slipping inside the jacket due to over-acceleration, you'll see groups widen.
Also, the fast the impact, the easier it is for the bullet to turn sideways. So you may find the higher velocity better for armor plates or longer range, but that the bullet disintegrates and turn in wood at closer range.
I saw UN's 1.40 measurement and thought I'd go measure mine . I start measuring and I get 1.385 , 1.377, 1.381 etc . hmm that's pretty close but not really . So I start weighing them . 163.2 , 162.1 , 164.3 , 163.6 etc . hmm that's not good either so now I start looking closer at the bullets them selves . Wait a second they are different . The cannelure is different
Then I look at the base and they are different as well
What say you guys ? Is this just a sign of bullets made in different NATO country's or are some fake ?
I don't have time right now but I'm going to cut into all three of those and take a look at what I have .
FWIW the bullets I loaded and tested all looked like the bullet on the right or in the pic with the core next to it . The bullets I just measured were bought at a different time but from the same place .
Then I look at the base and they are different as well
What say you guys ? Is this just a sign of bullets made in different NATO country's or are some fake ?
I don't have time right now but I'm going to cut into all three of those and take a look at what I have .
FWIW the bullets I loaded and tested all looked like the bullet on the right or in the pic with the core next to it . The bullets I just measured were bought at a different time but from the same place .
bacardisteve
New member
Awesome info unclenick and metalgod. I have seen the the effects of too much velocity when i played with some 125gr nosler ballistic tips @ 3950fps. They came apart after leaving the barrel. I bought the 300rum to turn it into a 338 edge but figured why waste a good barrel so I have been experimenting with the factory tube with some unconventional loadings for the caliber. So far its been a lot of fun.
Having fun is the main point. Sounds like you are on to that.
MG,
That's what comes of mixing the output of different tooling sets. I've still got some M2 Ball de-linked from machine gun belts that was loaded with slow lot WC852 (so I don't shoot it in the Garand). It's pull-and-replace fodder. But the bullets out of the same box look as shown below. At least 5 different tooling sets. Odd that it's so non-standard. Made me wonder if they actually made the bullets at Lake City or if they got them from different contractors and then stirred them all together. I heard the claim this was on purpose to give the machine gun some scatter. Silly idea, IMHO, but silly things are done, so I don't know. The amount of bend their crimps put in the bullets is so great, that's what assures it is 3 moa scatter ammo.
MG,
That's what comes of mixing the output of different tooling sets. I've still got some M2 Ball de-linked from machine gun belts that was loaded with slow lot WC852 (so I don't shoot it in the Garand). It's pull-and-replace fodder. But the bullets out of the same box look as shown below. At least 5 different tooling sets. Odd that it's so non-standard. Made me wonder if they actually made the bullets at Lake City or if they got them from different contractors and then stirred them all together. I heard the claim this was on purpose to give the machine gun some scatter. Silly idea, IMHO, but silly things are done, so I don't know. The amount of bend their crimps put in the bullets is so great, that's what assures it is 3 moa scatter ammo.
Attachments
The Army lot acceptance standards for machine gun ammo is pretty loose, and pretty much always has been.
As far as 30-06 machine gun ammo though, back when the DOD was still buying linked 30-06 we had significantly more ammo plants in operation than just Lake City, so bullet construction by sub-contractors getting mixed into the feed hopper at the final ammo plant is probably the rule instead of the exception.
As a side note, the lessons learned with M72 and M118SB FMJBT bullets is that as tooling wears over time, accuracy loosens up until the bullets are no longer producing ammunition that is capable of lot acceptance. Snipers used to hoard good lots, and bury bad lots, or try to get M852 match ammo (168gr SMK) for training. In fact, all of the ammunition currently in the system for Snipers have bullets made by Sierra, not ATK.
Jimro
As far as 30-06 machine gun ammo though, back when the DOD was still buying linked 30-06 we had significantly more ammo plants in operation than just Lake City, so bullet construction by sub-contractors getting mixed into the feed hopper at the final ammo plant is probably the rule instead of the exception.
As a side note, the lessons learned with M72 and M118SB FMJBT bullets is that as tooling wears over time, accuracy loosens up until the bullets are no longer producing ammunition that is capable of lot acceptance. Snipers used to hoard good lots, and bury bad lots, or try to get M852 match ammo (168gr SMK) for training. In fact, all of the ammunition currently in the system for Snipers have bullets made by Sierra, not ATK.
Jimro
Metal God...just different manufacturers.
All those look correct.... if you feel like testing one.. just put it in a vice, the hardened steel core will not mash like the rest of the bullet.
Also use a magnet... the steel will attract to the magnet.
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All those look correct.... if you feel like testing one.. just put it in a vice, the hardened steel core will not mash like the rest of the bullet.
Also use a magnet... the steel will attract to the magnet.
{Removed copyrighted image. Please read board policy on posting copyrighted materials.}
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When I first started reloading and was trying to get a 1" group in ~1999, I would go out on the logging road side roads and shoot at targets prone with an $85 Savage 110E 30-06 with $20 Weaver K4 with a wadded up jacket as a rest.
The 162 AP factory and handloads were shooting better than the 168 gr Federal gold match and Sierra Match King 168 handloads.. 4" is better than 6".
Knowing how bad my handloads were then, it is hard to explain.
I could guess the AP were longer, had more bearing surface, and could overcome being fed into the chamber crooked.
A couple years later John Benjamin the barrel maker was showing up in WA state for the machinery auctions. He told me those bullets were hard on barrels. He and I are EEs, as is Mr Bean.
The 162 AP factory and handloads were shooting better than the 168 gr Federal gold match and Sierra Match King 168 handloads.. 4" is better than 6".
Knowing how bad my handloads were then, it is hard to explain.
I could guess the AP were longer, had more bearing surface, and could overcome being fed into the chamber crooked.
A couple years later John Benjamin the barrel maker was showing up in WA state for the machinery auctions. He told me those bullets were hard on barrels. He and I are EEs, as is Mr Bean.