13 year old boy tragically shot by California Police

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Kimio

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Truly a sad story, and my heart goes out to the boys parents. Apparently the boy was walking to his friends house to return a replica AK47 pellet gun that he had borrowed, police arrived (I'm assuming someone called police fearing he was carrying the real deal, from another article the pellet gun did not have the mandatory orange cap from the looks of it) and commanded the boy to put down the weapon.

Supposably when he was turning towards the officers he was raising the rifle, and the LEO's opened fire, fearing for their safety.

This is why we must stress safety I think, be it with a toy or a real firearm, there is a reason those orange caps are on these kinds of toys. I don't know enough about what happened during the encounter to really judge whom was in the wrong to be honest, it can go both ways in this case I think.

Links to several different news agencies covering this particular case.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/24/justice/california-fake-rifle-boy-killed/index.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_...rying-toy-rifle-respected-police-father-says/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/23/andy-lopez_n_4152819.html
 
This is a tragedy. I don't know what happened but I'm pretty sure the cop wouldn't have shot if he didn't feel the gun was real and the kid was likely to shoot. He should have warned and we may never know the truth about whether one was issued.

I know as a parent I would feel a great deal of the responsibility. Some of these play replicas look real, especially from a distance. People carrying them should be taught to treat them as real. The kid is dead and his family as well as the officer will have to live with this as best they can.
 
At around that same age, I played airsoft with my friends. We all had our automatic rifles and most of us had some kind of pistol. We dressed in whatever BDU we could scrounge together at Army/Navy stores and played wherever we could find enough woods.

I had to do a bunch of research to convince my parents to let me play and one of the things that surprised me was how common these incidents were. Yeah, ours all had the blaze orange tip (mine was the entire flash hider of my MP5) but I don't expect someone to see that from a distance or the heat of the moment. One thing that was drilled into my head on airsoft forums was "If the cops are called and tell you to put your weapon down, don't talk or tell them it's fake. If you're holding your $1200 SystemA authentic reproduction M4 training rifle and they tell you to drop it, you drop the sucker on the ground as fast as you can and put your hands up." Who knows if this is what happened? Maybe they ordered and he didn't hear them or he froze up out of fear.

I also knew a couple of kids from a local high school who were arrested after they climbed onto a billboard and pointed their airsoft rifles at cars, but that's an entirely different stupidity.
 
I don't know it seems like these incidents are happening more and more. Being 13 years old I would bet that the kid froze and from the article I read (from a local TV station) the cops opened fire immediately. Any of you combat vets know that that during the heat of battle fire discipline is tough. Everyone wants to get rounds on target. If 10 cops show up they all start firing at the same time. There has got to be a better way.
 
No orange caps on pellet guns....

... Because these are considered firearms and not toys in California.
 
The kid has his back to them and probably had no idea what they were yelling. He turned to see what was going on and they shot him. I saw a photo of the gun taken from 2-3 feet. It looked fairly realistic from that range. From farther with less time to decide I would not have been able to discern it was not real.
I read it was a "BB" gun. I am not sure I support metallic BB guns having orange barrels. Airsoft guns either for that matter.



Tragic mistake.
 
This is a tragic incident, and prayers for ALL those involved and affected by it.

It is a symptom of the problem we have had for some time. Can't say for sure if it is getting worse, or if media coverage only makes it seem that way, but something seems to be making it worse (as in more frequent).

There have always been incidents of police mistakenly shooting. People have been shot, often killed, holding everything from a toy gun to a TV remote control, or their wallet.

Invariably, the officer(s) thought there was a gun, and believed they were in danger. Not finding fault with their actions, based on what they "knew" at the moment of shooting. Everyone here believes in the right of self defense, and even though it is the cops job to put themselves in positions of risk, they have every right to defend themselves, as do the rest of us.

BUT

It seems to me that today, the police are quicker on the trigger than they used to be. This shooting is just one example. Sure, I wasn't there, no punk in a hoodie was pointing an AK at me, I have the luxury of taking all the time I need to decide. SO, I'm not judging the right or wrong of the officers involved. But what I am going to judge are the situations and reactions overall that result in this kind of tragedy.

The specific facts are important, but also important is the overall perception of the police that these shootings create, and reinforce. Particularly among those people with enough life experience to remember when things were different, overall.

As I see it, were are now (and have been for some time) a complete 180 degree opposite from where we once were. At one time many police agencies required officers to actually be fired on, before they were allowed to shoot. Tell that to most people today, and they shake their heads in disbelief. The common response is "well that was just stupid.." or something similar.

Certainly this policy resulted in cases where officers were killed or wounded needlessly. Sometimes it resulted in situations where criminals escaped the police.

Today the "rules of engagement" are much changed. Weighing all the benefits and all the detriments, are we all being better served today?
 
Wow that is tragic. My heart goes out to his parents, and the parents of the boy, and the boy himself, he was delivering it to as I am sure they feel somewhat responsible. I know I would.

EDIT: Prayers for the officer(s) involved too. Man this is a sad, sad story.

WW2 that makes me really angry if its true. Who knows if an Orange cap would have saved this childs life. Living in California in its current state makes no sense to me. No surprise business is leaving the area at an alarming rate.
 
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It seems to me that today, the police are quicker on the trigger than they used to be. This shooting is just one example. Sure, I wasn't there, no punk in a hoodie was pointing an AK at me, I have the luxury of taking all the time I need to decide. SO, I'm not judging the right or wrong of the officers involved. But what I am going to judge are the situations and reactions overall that result in this kind of tragedy.

The specific facts are important, but also important is the overall perception of the police that these shootings create, and reinforce. Particularly among those people with enough life experience to remember when things were different, overall.
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How understanding would we be if the tables had been turned, and an armed citizen shot a cop who appeared to be a threat? Would it be a tradegy, with a few "I'm sorrys", or would someone be spending their life in prison?
 
Somehow, I really don't believe the account told by the Officers. I think they over reacted, shot the kid before the kid knew what was happening and they are now covering their butts.

The simple act of carrying a GENUINE rifle in public should never be a crime; certainly not one where the cops need to go into mall-ninja-swat mode.
 
Cops are jumpy no doubt, but how many articles have I read about very young kids killing others? Geez, we got a murder case here where a girl and her brother killed some folks, she was upset cause he took her first kill from her.....

With this mind set on the streets and the amount of guns....

Tragic yes, cops maybe need some more trainingf? and calif should make them put orange tips on them guns that are now powder projectile type weapons.

We had toy 6 shooters for sure, but not one cop would ever mistake them for the real deal.


shot him 7 times....... My boy is 11, he carries around his bb guns out in teh country where we live. Sometimes he has a bow or his 410 or his 22.....
 
According to one report, from the time the police radioed "suspicious person with a gun" until the last shot was fired was 10 seconds. And in that time, it was reported that the officers hit the lights, blipped the siren, exited and took cover behind their cruiser, before ordering the suspect to drop the gun.
Draw you own conclusions.

No one is saying it isn't a dangerous profession. Cops have every right to be nervous.

But impression being created by this, and other incidents is that if the police think you have a weapon, and they do not see instant and total compliance they shoot.

These things always seem to happen very fast. When innocents get shot, clearly we see, after the fact that it was too fast.
 
LIsten people get real.

It was a bb gun/pellet gun. Under all rules its a firearm, just like that .357 magnum in your nightstand.

Everyone over the age of 3 should be smart enough to know that if you point a gun at a cop your going to get shot dead right there. and looking at the information that is what happened. Yes it sucks,b ut it happened. No one would cry if it happened to an adult.

They followed simple standard procedure.
 
You can look back at my previous posts and see I am not easy on law enforcement. For instance I will point out that according to Osha stats the job is NOWHERE near as dangerous as most cos would lead you to believe(same goes for firefighters).

But, as said above a bb gun is a gun and this one looked like an AK. I can't find fault with the police.

My house is currently being invaded by camel crickets following the first cold snap of the season. Some quick reading online suggested I use an airsoft gun to eliminate the pests so I dug mine out. Fancy schmancy MP5ish thing I bought in college when I was single and "disposable income" was more than a term in a personal finance book. I'm the kind of guy who keeps manuals and I couldn't help but notice the manual says not to be used by minors without adult supervision. We can say "lawyer talk" "liability nonsense" all we want, but at the end of the day had a guardian been present this likely would have gone another way.

I have carried BB guns on private property as a minor without adult supervision. It was private and we were never allowed within sight of roads(fear we would hit a car with a miss more than fear of police).
 
also, in michigan,a nd most jurisdictions if you act like an airsoft toy is a real gun, the legal system treats it like a real gun. Ie, if you put it in a shoulder holster, wear it, put a coat on and get arrested for jay walking. the cop who arrests you will charge you for carrying a concealed weapon unless you have a chl permit.
 
Bezoar said:
LIsten people get real.

It was a bb gun/pellet gun. Under all rules its a firearm, just like that .357 magnum in your nightstand.
Click to expand...

Actually, that's rarely the case. In fact, according to these guys only 4 states define or treat "non-powder" guns as firearms and California isn't one of them.
 
Brian? You do know that Those Guys were known as LCAV (Legal Community Against Violence - A San Francisco anti-gun attorney group) before they morphed into the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence (LCPGV)?

Not saying they are wrong in the webpage you linked to, just be careful of what you pull from this site.
 
Yes, I used that on purpose, figuring if anybody should think that a BB gun is a firearm, it'd be them. Even they acknowledge that almost no one does.
 
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