roadrocket
New member
can anybody tell me the quantity of blackpowder to use with 28 gram shot load in a 12 bore cartridge .
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12bore blackpowder load.
- Thread starter roadrocket
- Start date
roadrocket
New member
is that by volume i assume that is.
Model12Win
Moderator
YES use VOLUME. Do NOT load 1/16th of a pound of powder! I will explode!
Use the SAME measure you use for the shot for with the powder!
Use the SAME measure you use for the shot for with the powder!
jaguarxk120
New member
My Bridgeport No. 21 powder/shot measure shows 1 oz. of shot equals 2 1/2 drams of powder.
A 80 grain charge of black powder would equal a 3 dram loading.
A 80 grain charge of black powder would equal a 3 dram loading.
You don't have to do a square load. I get better results with a bit more volume of shot, less of the powder. I recommend less powder if you are only going to use 1 oz (28gram) of shot in a 12 bore. 65 to 75 grains FFG and you'll have a tighter pattern, with still enough oomph to kill some clay birds, or squirrels/rabbits/etc... That's actually what I use in my 20 gauge. If you are shooting from an older / antique shotgun with damascus or twist barrel(s), you may want to lighten it up even more.
Fingers McGee
New member
70 gr ffg, 1 oz 7 1/2 shot, claybuster wad - or 1/8" over powder wad and 3/4" inch cushion wad"
YES use VOLUME. Do NOT load 1/16th of a pound of powder! I will explode!
An ounce taken literally, or 437 grains of powder, would never fit in a 12 gauge shell, not even a 3 inch magnum case without running over.
When muzzle loaders shooting shotguns say they use "one ounce of shot and powder" they mean the volume measured by a shot measure set to one ounce. Many don't even know their powder load in grains, they are so accustomed to using shot measures calibrated in ounces of shot to measure their powder charges.
jaguarxk120
New member
My two powder/shot measures are calibrated in ounces of shot and drams of powder.
But then they are over 100 years old when black powder was the norm.
But then they are over 100 years old when black powder was the norm.
Driftwood Johnson
New member
Howdy
I'm not sure where the Original Poster lives, but here in the USA it is typical to express the weight of shot in ounces, not in grams. Doing a quick conversion I see that 28 grams of shot is almost exactly 1 ounce. Which makes for a pretty light load.
Just as specifying the amount of powder and shot without specifying a wad is useless information for a Smokeless shotshell load, it is the same with Black Powder.
With the thin cross section of a shotgun barrel, it is essential that Smokeless components; hull, primer, powder, wad, and shot be specified precisely or bad things can happen.
Luckily, with a Black Powder load, the components are more forgiving. Still, you do not want powder and shot rattling around loose in a BP shell. You still have to specify a wad. Generally speaking, because the volume of Black Powder used in a shotshell is greater than the volume of Smokeless powder used in a shotshell, most modern plastic shotgun wads are too tall for a Black Powder load, and will not fit properly in the loaded hull.
Some shooters cut off standard plastic wads, but the most common modern plastic wad used by Black Powder shooters in CAS is the old Winchester Red Wad. It is a fairly short wad and fits well with the increased volume of powder usually found in a BP shotshell. Unfortunately, the old Winchester Red Wad has been out of production for some time.
Luckily, Claybuster makes a wad which is essentially the same as the old Winchester Red Wad, CB1138-12. You will see this wad about halfway down the page with this link. Notice that this wad specifies it is good for 1 1/8 ounces to 1 7/8 ounce loads. I have no idea if it will work with a 1 ounce load.
https://www.claybusterwads.com/index.php/winchester-style
Square Loads: The idea behind the old Square Load was to use the same Volume of shot as the Volume of powder. Generally speaking, putting more powder in by volume than shot tended to blow the pattern open. As has been stated, putting less powder than shot, by volume, in the hull is not a problem.
Getting back to plastic wads for a moment, unfortunately the high temperature of Black Powder burning tends to cause the plastic to melt, much more so than a Smokeless load. This tends to leave melted plastic in the bore, which must be cleaned out when cleaning the shotgun. Generally speaking, very hot water along with vigorous scrubbing will remove the melted plastic from the bore.
Personally, I do not use plastic wads in my Black Powder shotgun loads. Instead I opt for separate card wads, the old fashioned way. Yes, it is a bit more time consuming to load a shotshell this way, but I don't have any melted plastic left in my bore when I am done with a match.
I use either a Winchester AA hull or a Remington STS hull for my Black Powder CAS shotshell loads. I use these specific hulls because the rules in CAS do not allow for ejectors, so I like the slippery plastic used in making these hulls so I can pop the empties out with a quick jerk backwards. I like the Remington STS hulls the best because they are the most slippery. However my recipe should work for almost any modern, plastic shotshell hull.
I opt for a slightly lighter powder charge than many others. My powder charge is 4.3CC of Schuetzen FFg. This comes to roughly 64.4 grains, or 2.35 drams. Different brands of powder will weigh a different amount because no BP weighs the same. I chose 4.3CC simply because that is the largest dipper in the standard Lee dipper set. I use 1 1/8 ounces of #8 shot, so this is considerably under a Square Load. But it does not blow the pattern and knocks down anything I aim it at. Of course, any size shot will do, as long as it is 1 1/8 ounces, but I keep #8 around for my Trap loads.
I use Winchester 209 primers, but any 209 primer will do.
The rest of my recipe is card wads that I buy from Circle Fly. Circle Fly wads are also available from Track of the Wolf.
http://www.circlefly.com/html/products.html
I put a 1/8" Over Powder Card on top of the powder, then I make sure it is slightly compressed by pressing a short length of 5/8 wooden dowel on top of the Over Powder Card. Next is a 1/2" Cushion Wad, then the shot, and finally before I crimp I place a .025 Over Shot Card on top of the shot. This is not really necessary, but because my powder charge is a bit light, my crimps tend to be slightly concave, and a piece or two of shot can escape without the Over Shot Card to keep them there.
I load all my BP shotgun shells on an old MEC Jr. I DO NOT use the powder bottle that comes with the MEC for powder. I manually dip the powder out of a coffee cup with my 4.3CC dipper. I will NEVER use a standard powder measure with Black Powder. I do use the standard 1 1/8 ounce shot bar with my MEC JR and have a large, oversized shot bottle installed. I also opted for the automatic primer dropper mechanism to speed things up a little bit.
Yes, it is a lot of work to make BP shotshells the way I do, but I have been doing it this way for a long time. Once I have everything set out and get cranking, I can average about 4 boxes of shells per hour.
I'm not sure where the Original Poster lives, but here in the USA it is typical to express the weight of shot in ounces, not in grams. Doing a quick conversion I see that 28 grams of shot is almost exactly 1 ounce. Which makes for a pretty light load.
Just as specifying the amount of powder and shot without specifying a wad is useless information for a Smokeless shotshell load, it is the same with Black Powder.
With the thin cross section of a shotgun barrel, it is essential that Smokeless components; hull, primer, powder, wad, and shot be specified precisely or bad things can happen.
Luckily, with a Black Powder load, the components are more forgiving. Still, you do not want powder and shot rattling around loose in a BP shell. You still have to specify a wad. Generally speaking, because the volume of Black Powder used in a shotshell is greater than the volume of Smokeless powder used in a shotshell, most modern plastic shotgun wads are too tall for a Black Powder load, and will not fit properly in the loaded hull.
Some shooters cut off standard plastic wads, but the most common modern plastic wad used by Black Powder shooters in CAS is the old Winchester Red Wad. It is a fairly short wad and fits well with the increased volume of powder usually found in a BP shotshell. Unfortunately, the old Winchester Red Wad has been out of production for some time.
Luckily, Claybuster makes a wad which is essentially the same as the old Winchester Red Wad, CB1138-12. You will see this wad about halfway down the page with this link. Notice that this wad specifies it is good for 1 1/8 ounces to 1 7/8 ounce loads. I have no idea if it will work with a 1 ounce load.
https://www.claybusterwads.com/index.php/winchester-style
Square Loads: The idea behind the old Square Load was to use the same Volume of shot as the Volume of powder. Generally speaking, putting more powder in by volume than shot tended to blow the pattern open. As has been stated, putting less powder than shot, by volume, in the hull is not a problem.
Getting back to plastic wads for a moment, unfortunately the high temperature of Black Powder burning tends to cause the plastic to melt, much more so than a Smokeless load. This tends to leave melted plastic in the bore, which must be cleaned out when cleaning the shotgun. Generally speaking, very hot water along with vigorous scrubbing will remove the melted plastic from the bore.
Personally, I do not use plastic wads in my Black Powder shotgun loads. Instead I opt for separate card wads, the old fashioned way. Yes, it is a bit more time consuming to load a shotshell this way, but I don't have any melted plastic left in my bore when I am done with a match.
I use either a Winchester AA hull or a Remington STS hull for my Black Powder CAS shotshell loads. I use these specific hulls because the rules in CAS do not allow for ejectors, so I like the slippery plastic used in making these hulls so I can pop the empties out with a quick jerk backwards. I like the Remington STS hulls the best because they are the most slippery. However my recipe should work for almost any modern, plastic shotshell hull.
I opt for a slightly lighter powder charge than many others. My powder charge is 4.3CC of Schuetzen FFg. This comes to roughly 64.4 grains, or 2.35 drams. Different brands of powder will weigh a different amount because no BP weighs the same. I chose 4.3CC simply because that is the largest dipper in the standard Lee dipper set. I use 1 1/8 ounces of #8 shot, so this is considerably under a Square Load. But it does not blow the pattern and knocks down anything I aim it at. Of course, any size shot will do, as long as it is 1 1/8 ounces, but I keep #8 around for my Trap loads.
I use Winchester 209 primers, but any 209 primer will do.
The rest of my recipe is card wads that I buy from Circle Fly. Circle Fly wads are also available from Track of the Wolf.
http://www.circlefly.com/html/products.html
I put a 1/8" Over Powder Card on top of the powder, then I make sure it is slightly compressed by pressing a short length of 5/8 wooden dowel on top of the Over Powder Card. Next is a 1/2" Cushion Wad, then the shot, and finally before I crimp I place a .025 Over Shot Card on top of the shot. This is not really necessary, but because my powder charge is a bit light, my crimps tend to be slightly concave, and a piece or two of shot can escape without the Over Shot Card to keep them there.
I load all my BP shotgun shells on an old MEC Jr. I DO NOT use the powder bottle that comes with the MEC for powder. I manually dip the powder out of a coffee cup with my 4.3CC dipper. I will NEVER use a standard powder measure with Black Powder. I do use the standard 1 1/8 ounce shot bar with my MEC JR and have a large, oversized shot bottle installed. I also opted for the automatic primer dropper mechanism to speed things up a little bit.
Yes, it is a lot of work to make BP shotshells the way I do, but I have been doing it this way for a long time. Once I have everything set out and get cranking, I can average about 4 boxes of shells per hour.
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Personally, I do not use plastic wads in my Black Powder shotgun loads. Instead I opt for separate card wads, the old fashioned way. Yes, it is a bit more time consuming to load a shotshell this way, but I don't have any melted plastic left in my bore when I am done with a match.
I use card/fiber wads only for a different reason. The rules for black powder cartridge skeet or trap forbid plastic wads.
I just use one nitro card and one cushion wad with additional nitro or overshot cards added for correct stack height, determined by trial and error and varies according to what hulls you use.
I save my STS, Nitro27, GunClubs etc. for my modern reloads and use various Reifenhäuser style straight wall hulls for once and done black powder reloads.
80 grains FFg and 1-1/8 ounce is a good trap load. Because of the closer ranges of skeet, I use lighter loads for it.
Driftwood Johnson
New member
I use card/fiber wads only for a different reason. The rules for black powder cartridge skeet or trap forbid plastic wads.
I just use one nitro card and one cushion wad with additional nitro or overshot cards added for correct stack height, determined by trial and error and varies according to what hulls you use.
I save my STS, Nitro27, GunClubs etc. for my modern reloads and use various Reifenhäuser style straight wall hulls for once and done black powder reloads.
80 grains FFg and 1-1/8 ounce is a good trap load. Because of the closer ranges of skeet, I use lighter loads for it.
Howdy B.L.E.
Learn something everyday. I did not relalize there was such a discipline as BP Cartridge Trap or Skeet.
I would be interested in hearing what shotgun you are using. Type? Barrel Length? Choke?
For regular Smokeless Trap I use a Winchester Model 12 Trap Model with a 30" full choke barrel.
80 grains of FFg and 1 1/8 ounces is a pretty stiff load. That's equivalent to a 3 dram 1 1/8 ounce load. Myself, I shoot 2 3/4 Dram 1 ounce loads in Trap. I used to shoot 2 3/4 Dram 1 1/8 ounce loads, but I throttled back to 1 ounce a few years ago. That's enough shot and power for me at 16 yards, if I miss it's my fault, not the gun or the load. I can't imagine an afternoon of 3 Dram 1 1/8 ounce loads. My shoulder would be hurting and I would probably be flinching like mad.
That Cowboy load I talked about works well for Cowboy Action Shooting, the targets are not moving and they are not very far away. I am using an old Stevens Hammer Double with the barrels sawed off (before I bought it) to 24" so it has cylinder bores. Plenty effective for what I need in CAS.
Jim Watson
New member
I shot a good deal of ATA Trap in the 1970s and 1980s.
Early days, the usual load for 16 yard singles was 2 3/4 DE 1 1/8 oz, handicap 3 DE, 1 1/8 oz.
Recoil comfort and the cost of shot has brought the usual load down to 1 oz. Reloaders load it to the same velocity as before but a lot of people just buy the bulk stuff which is at higher velocity. I think to be sure to generate enough gas and recoil to operate the automatics.
W.W. Greener wrote of the gun trials organized by The Field magazine.
Shotguns were tested for pattern and power. Power usually evaluated by penetration of paper, cardboard, or tin by the usual No 6 shot. (British scale, about 7 on the US chart).
He pointed out that it was a common ploy to provide heavy loads for the penetration test and close shooting lightly loaded shells for the pattern board.
He recommended putting a Pettit's Pad of penetration test sheets in the middle of the pattern board so the same load would be simultaneously tested for both.
Early days, the usual load for 16 yard singles was 2 3/4 DE 1 1/8 oz, handicap 3 DE, 1 1/8 oz.
Recoil comfort and the cost of shot has brought the usual load down to 1 oz. Reloaders load it to the same velocity as before but a lot of people just buy the bulk stuff which is at higher velocity. I think to be sure to generate enough gas and recoil to operate the automatics.
W.W. Greener wrote of the gun trials organized by The Field magazine.
Shotguns were tested for pattern and power. Power usually evaluated by penetration of paper, cardboard, or tin by the usual No 6 shot. (British scale, about 7 on the US chart).
He pointed out that it was a common ploy to provide heavy loads for the penetration test and close shooting lightly loaded shells for the pattern board.
He recommended putting a Pettit's Pad of penetration test sheets in the middle of the pattern board so the same load would be simultaneously tested for both.
The BP cartridge trap and skeet are sort of side matches at the muzzle loading trap and skeet events and by the rules, the shotgun has to have an open hammer, original damascus barrel guns may be hammerless.
I use an Ithaca M-66 super single that I had since I was in high school with a modified choke. I did see an 1897 trap gun at Cabelas once and thought to myself, "that would be legal for BP cartridge" but someone bought it before I decided to buy it. Darn!
For skeet, I use an old open hammer AYA side by side.
I spend most of the time shooting my muzzleloading trap gun at those events and maybe doing only one or two cartridge events.
The Red River Renegades in Electra TX, near Wichita Falls, has their annual Muzzle Loading Shotgun Soiree every April, the second weekend April unless that's Easter. It's a four day event starting on Thursday with a huge BBQ dinner on Saturday night and the champion rounds on Sunday morning.
I use an Ithaca M-66 super single that I had since I was in high school with a modified choke. I did see an 1897 trap gun at Cabelas once and thought to myself, "that would be legal for BP cartridge" but someone bought it before I decided to buy it. Darn!
For skeet, I use an old open hammer AYA side by side.
I spend most of the time shooting my muzzleloading trap gun at those events and maybe doing only one or two cartridge events.
The Red River Renegades in Electra TX, near Wichita Falls, has their annual Muzzle Loading Shotgun Soiree every April, the second weekend April unless that's Easter. It's a four day event starting on Thursday with a huge BBQ dinner on Saturday night and the champion rounds on Sunday morning.
Driftwood Johnson
New member
I did see an 1897 trap gun at Cabelas once and thought to myself, "that would be legal for BP cartridge" but someone bought it before I decided to buy it. Darn!
Thanks for the reply.
We're getting a bit off topic, but I have a Winchester Model 1897 with a 30" full choked barrel. It is just a field gun, not a Trap model, but I do fairly well with it when we have a Cowboy Trap event at one of the larger annual events. Just regular 16 yard singles trap, but we are supposed to use guns that are SASS legal, and the only SASS legal pump shotgun is the Model 1897.
Of course the Model 1897 was designed for Smokeless powder, and I do shoot Smokeless through my '97 when I shoot Cowboy Trap with it. I usually do much better than the guys trying to shoot Trap with a SXS coach gun.
So what kind of scores do you guys get when you're shooting muzzle loaders or BP cartridge guns? The best I have ever done with my '97 is 24 out of 25 a couple of times. Have not managed to run them all yet.
The Red River Renegade BP cartridge match is a 15 bird match, I have managed a 14 out of 15 score.
In the muzzle loading matches, I have run 25 straight a couple of times in 25 bird matches. One gentleman I compete against often holds the NMLRA record score for their open muzzle loading trap match with 100 straight during the nationals in Friendship.
For this, most of us shoot custom built muzzle loading trap guns, adjustable combs, truss ribs, the works. Some even use Browning BT-99 trap guns converted to muzzle loaders.
I have never made it to Friendship Indiana for the nationals, just too far from where I live, but a lot of the guys who shoot there come down to Electra.
In the muzzle loading matches, I have run 25 straight a couple of times in 25 bird matches. One gentleman I compete against often holds the NMLRA record score for their open muzzle loading trap match with 100 straight during the nationals in Friendship.
For this, most of us shoot custom built muzzle loading trap guns, adjustable combs, truss ribs, the works. Some even use Browning BT-99 trap guns converted to muzzle loaders.
I have never made it to Friendship Indiana for the nationals, just too far from where I live, but a lot of the guys who shoot there come down to Electra.