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125g flat point for competition
- Thread starter Jeryray
- Start date
Depending on what type of competition you are into, the 125's can work just fine. Cowboys shooter use the 125's a lot for reduced recoil with very light powder charges. For bullseye type work with a swc, I would opt for the 158's as they would give me more bearing surface in the barrel. I have loaded 158's for many years with 2.7 gr. of Bullseye and had good results.
Jeryray,
First, I am assuming your gun is chambered in .38 Special, since you didn't specify. However, a lot of CAS shooters have revived the older .38 S&W, .38 Short Colt, and .38 Long Colt in historical revolvers, and if you have one of these, then the load information below is wrong.
Seating depth is the issue.
Seating Depth = Case Length + Bullet Length - COL (finished cartridge overall length)
I don't know your seating depths because I don't know your bullet lengths. I can tell you that if I seat a cast 158 grain WC in a .38 Special case to maximum COL (1.550") over 3 grains of bullseye, then replace it with a 125 grain cast bullet seated to the same maximum COL, QuickLOAD shows it takes about 3.7 grains of Bullseye to bring the pressure up to match. This is due to a combination of more space and a lighter bullet that offers less inertia to build pressure against. I can also tell you that QuickLOAD thinks the pressure in both instances will be well under 10,000 psi, which gets you down in a range of pressure where muzzle velocity often becomes erratic due to inconsistent start pressure, especially in very short barrel guns.
125's with a metal jacket often do well with reasonable load levels, but with lead bullets that have a short bearing surface (the cylindrical part that contacts the bore) such as an RN or an RNFP that light, they turn more easily and deform into the forcing cone at a slight angle, and that can result in the bullet center of mass being off the bore axis while it is spun by the rifling. In turn, that causes them to jump laterally as they exit the muzzle, imposing drift off the trajectory line that opens groups up. The only common bullet shape made whose center of mass does not go off the bore axis when it tilts in the bore is the double-ended wadcutter.
The traditional .38 Special light target load uses 148 grain wadcutters seated flush with the case mouth and with 2.7 to 3.0 grains of bullseye under them. They are very popular target loads. In both instances, the much greater seating depth shortens the powder space until the pressure is back up above 10,000 psi but is still below the 17,000 psi upper limit, improving ignition, solving the erratic velocity issue, and causing the powder to burn more cleanly.
I've bought a lot of wadcutters over the years, and the most accurate one in my revolvers has been those I cast myself using the Lee Tumble Lube design with their liquid Alox lube, loaded and fired as-cast (no sizing) and with a light roll crimp into the last groove (so they are almost, but not quite flush with the case mouth). If you don't cast bullets, a number of good cast bullet makers are out there as well as the swaged lead wadcutters being available. Natchez has stock on swaged Hornady HBWC. I prefer the balanced solids to the HB design, but the latter will get you through a bore constriction better, if you have one. I only use the lighter 2.7 grain load with HBWC's to avoid having enough muzzle pressure to blow the skirt out as the bullet exits. But the cast TL design I mentioned groups almost twice as tightly for me from a K-38.
First, I am assuming your gun is chambered in .38 Special, since you didn't specify. However, a lot of CAS shooters have revived the older .38 S&W, .38 Short Colt, and .38 Long Colt in historical revolvers, and if you have one of these, then the load information below is wrong.
Seating depth is the issue.
Seating Depth = Case Length + Bullet Length - COL (finished cartridge overall length)
I don't know your seating depths because I don't know your bullet lengths. I can tell you that if I seat a cast 158 grain WC in a .38 Special case to maximum COL (1.550") over 3 grains of bullseye, then replace it with a 125 grain cast bullet seated to the same maximum COL, QuickLOAD shows it takes about 3.7 grains of Bullseye to bring the pressure up to match. This is due to a combination of more space and a lighter bullet that offers less inertia to build pressure against. I can also tell you that QuickLOAD thinks the pressure in both instances will be well under 10,000 psi, which gets you down in a range of pressure where muzzle velocity often becomes erratic due to inconsistent start pressure, especially in very short barrel guns.
125's with a metal jacket often do well with reasonable load levels, but with lead bullets that have a short bearing surface (the cylindrical part that contacts the bore) such as an RN or an RNFP that light, they turn more easily and deform into the forcing cone at a slight angle, and that can result in the bullet center of mass being off the bore axis while it is spun by the rifling. In turn, that causes them to jump laterally as they exit the muzzle, imposing drift off the trajectory line that opens groups up. The only common bullet shape made whose center of mass does not go off the bore axis when it tilts in the bore is the double-ended wadcutter.
The traditional .38 Special light target load uses 148 grain wadcutters seated flush with the case mouth and with 2.7 to 3.0 grains of bullseye under them. They are very popular target loads. In both instances, the much greater seating depth shortens the powder space until the pressure is back up above 10,000 psi but is still below the 17,000 psi upper limit, improving ignition, solving the erratic velocity issue, and causing the powder to burn more cleanly.
I've bought a lot of wadcutters over the years, and the most accurate one in my revolvers has been those I cast myself using the Lee Tumble Lube design with their liquid Alox lube, loaded and fired as-cast (no sizing) and with a light roll crimp into the last groove (so they are almost, but not quite flush with the case mouth). If you don't cast bullets, a number of good cast bullet makers are out there as well as the swaged lead wadcutters being available. Natchez has stock on swaged Hornady HBWC. I prefer the balanced solids to the HB design, but the latter will get you through a bore constriction better, if you have one. I only use the lighter 2.7 grain load with HBWC's to avoid having enough muzzle pressure to blow the skirt out as the bullet exits. But the cast TL design I mentioned groups almost twice as tightly for me from a K-38.
I shoot 38 Special in competition (IDPA, ICORE). I use Comp III speedloaders.
My revolver is a Smith model 67, 4" bbl. The charge holes have been chamfered for ease of speedloading.
I haven't. But this is just my anecdotal observation. I haven't timed the difference. It seems, long as there is some "pointiness" to their profile, they'll drop in pretty fast. Wadcutters, on the other hand, slow you down a bit - even with the chamfered charge holes.
Like Unclenick says, you'll have to move up to 3.7 grains to achieve the same pressure, according to QuickLoad. Achieving the same power factor may require a bit of an adjustment (downward from 3.7, most likely, since you're moving to a lighter bullet - ymmv). Which brings some questions: What competition? What is the power factor (if applicable)? Do you have a chronograph?
A lot of competition revolver shooters use 125's in competition. Asking them is usually results in gaining knowledge. Most folks like sharing their load techniques / info.
My revolver is a Smith model 67, 4" bbl. The charge holes have been chamfered for ease of speedloading.
i have found that *some* round noses drop in the cylinder faster than a truncated cone.
I haven't. But this is just my anecdotal observation. I haven't timed the difference. It seems, long as there is some "pointiness" to their profile, they'll drop in pretty fast. Wadcutters, on the other hand, slow you down a bit - even with the chamfered charge holes.
Like Unclenick says, you'll have to move up to 3.7 grains to achieve the same pressure, according to QuickLoad. Achieving the same power factor may require a bit of an adjustment (downward from 3.7, most likely, since you're moving to a lighter bullet - ymmv). Which brings some questions: What competition? What is the power factor (if applicable)? Do you have a chronograph?
A lot of competition revolver shooters use 125's in competition. Asking them is usually results in gaining knowledge. Most folks like sharing their load techniques / info.
"...Sound about right?..." You must work up the load. Not just pick one and hope.
Which 125 grain bullet matters if and only if you're loading jacketed or cast/plated. If it's a jacketed 3.3 of Bullseye is way under minimum. Alliant gives 4.1 to 4.5 for a 125 grain jacketed bullet. Alliant's site also shows "Cowboy" loads with cast 125's as 4.3 to 4.8 of Bullseye.
Factory ammo uses powders that reloaders cannot get. Plus the makers do not publish what load they use since in can change literally from one day to the next. So what factory ammo does is irrelevant. And the only Remington UMC 125 grain .38 ammo I'm seeing is +P. That's not target ammo.
Which 125 grain bullet matters if and only if you're loading jacketed or cast/plated. If it's a jacketed 3.3 of Bullseye is way under minimum. Alliant gives 4.1 to 4.5 for a 125 grain jacketed bullet. Alliant's site also shows "Cowboy" loads with cast 125's as 4.3 to 4.8 of Bullseye.
Factory ammo uses powders that reloaders cannot get. Plus the makers do not publish what load they use since in can change literally from one day to the next. So what factory ammo does is irrelevant. And the only Remington UMC 125 grain .38 ammo I'm seeing is +P. That's not target ammo.
Yes i think the OP will not make any power factor requirement for any discipline other than bullseye with that load. In IDPA even if you are making 105 power factor it can still not be enough to knock down some steel targets unless they have been specifically calibrated for idpa (don’t bet on it).
Nick_C_S. I have found that xtreme Bullets truncated cone drop in nicely. But their round nose are a little slower. Bayou Bullets (owned by Miculeks brother) has a round nose profile that is very pointy and drop in the fastest. They are my go to.
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Nick_C_S. I have found that xtreme Bullets truncated cone drop in nicely. But their round nose are a little slower. Bayou Bullets (owned by Miculeks brother) has a round nose profile that is very pointy and drop in the fastest. They are my go to.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Wow, I am digesting all of this. Been away too long.
So the Matches are 480 Combat 2 targets 12 rounds on each. 6 Rounds, reload, 6 more. Done at 25 feet and 50 feet.
Checked my OAL it's 1.468
Factory UMC Remington checks 1.539 those are 130G
I am still waiting for the 125g, I am going away from wads because of the speedloader issue.
Also like the plated bullets, less lead build up.
I think I should use the longer OAL and try 3.4 for the first 10 rounds.
Need to be accurate at 25 feet and 50 feet, like the factory ammo.
So the Matches are 480 Combat 2 targets 12 rounds on each. 6 Rounds, reload, 6 more. Done at 25 feet and 50 feet.
Checked my OAL it's 1.468
Factory UMC Remington checks 1.539 those are 130G
I am still waiting for the 125g, I am going away from wads because of the speedloader issue.
Also like the plated bullets, less lead build up.
I think I should use the longer OAL and try 3.4 for the first 10 rounds.
Need to be accurate at 25 feet and 50 feet, like the factory ammo.
Radny97, Yeah, I shoot in competition and I load to IDPA PF, but I just shoot to have fun and enjoy the company of like-minded folks. I almost always finish in the middle 1/3 of the group - when I bother to look at all. So my observations as to which bullet profile speedloads better than others is only based on my casual observation. I often speedload at the range, and much of my experience is there - not necessarily in actual competition.
I do load my share of X-treme 125's. I load to an OAL of 1.445" (per Berry's recommendation). I have taper crimp dies for my plated bullets because I load a lot of them. But I don't load them to PF. I load them hotter - often 5.0 grains of W231 - which yields 870 f/s through my 4" (840 is needed for PF).
In competition, I almost always use 148 DEWC's (both plated, and soft cast lead). These, I load almost entirely to PF and have done extensive load testing with a chronograph, using lots of different powders. I need the big round wadcutter hole so I can see my impact points though the reading glasses that I use to see the sights (getting old, sigh). Speedloading WC's takes about 3/4 second longer than any pointy profiled bullet. And yeah, 3/4 second is a lot if you take your competition seriously. I don't.
Winchester White Box 130gn FMJ's yield 847 f/s; which is a PF of 110. I have used these quite a bit in IDPA. They are a truncated RN profile. They used to be a true RN, until some years back. Either way, they slide in nice; and I never noticed any speedloading difference between the old n new profiles. (I use WWB as the source for my brass - hence, the use of factory ammo. I buy them by the case for this purpose.) I've also used 158 plated RN's for competition (at ICORE's 125 PF) and they drop right in too. 158 LSWC's (again, to ICORE PF) drop in good, but can hang up just a touch on the "lip." It's fast enough for me, but sometimes, I can feel that slight hang-up. True competitors probably would have none of that.
I do load my share of X-treme 125's. I load to an OAL of 1.445" (per Berry's recommendation). I have taper crimp dies for my plated bullets because I load a lot of them. But I don't load them to PF. I load them hotter - often 5.0 grains of W231 - which yields 870 f/s through my 4" (840 is needed for PF).
In competition, I almost always use 148 DEWC's (both plated, and soft cast lead). These, I load almost entirely to PF and have done extensive load testing with a chronograph, using lots of different powders. I need the big round wadcutter hole so I can see my impact points though the reading glasses that I use to see the sights (getting old, sigh). Speedloading WC's takes about 3/4 second longer than any pointy profiled bullet. And yeah, 3/4 second is a lot if you take your competition seriously. I don't.
Winchester White Box 130gn FMJ's yield 847 f/s; which is a PF of 110. I have used these quite a bit in IDPA. They are a truncated RN profile. They used to be a true RN, until some years back. Either way, they slide in nice; and I never noticed any speedloading difference between the old n new profiles. (I use WWB as the source for my brass - hence, the use of factory ammo. I buy them by the case for this purpose.) I've also used 158 plated RN's for competition (at ICORE's 125 PF) and they drop right in too. 158 LSWC's (again, to ICORE PF) drop in good, but can hang up just a touch on the "lip." It's fast enough for me, but sometimes, I can feel that slight hang-up. True competitors probably would have none of that.
Alliant's site also shows "Cowboy" loads with cast 125's as 4.3 to 4.8 of Bullseye.
That could be, but Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook shows 3.2-4.2, and my rounds at 4.0 were a bit hotter than I wanted. They show 4.9 as +p.
I have a mould that casts a .357 diameter 124 grain Truncated Cone bullet designed for 9mm. I had cast a number with the 4 cavity NOE mould 358-124-TC-GC and loaded some into 38 special and 357 magnum loads just to see.
A trip to the range was quite eye opening....just a few random loads taken from books using Bullseye, Unique and AA #5 showed they all shot amazingly tight groups from a model 64 S&W 38 special and a Ruger Blackhawk 357 magnum.
I don't know why the TC bullets shoot this well...but they do and I going to load some more because I like clover leaf groups. One 15 shot group at 75 feet went into one ragged hole 1 1/4 inch in diameter...I'm 67 and don't see open sights that well any more, I was flabbergasted by these results. No random fliers if I held steady .
Give them a try, they might do good. Hint; I taper crimped my loads with a 9mm Luger taper crimp die...seat and crimp in separate steps for the best results.
Gary
A trip to the range was quite eye opening....just a few random loads taken from books using Bullseye, Unique and AA #5 showed they all shot amazingly tight groups from a model 64 S&W 38 special and a Ruger Blackhawk 357 magnum.
I don't know why the TC bullets shoot this well...but they do and I going to load some more because I like clover leaf groups. One 15 shot group at 75 feet went into one ragged hole 1 1/4 inch in diameter...I'm 67 and don't see open sights that well any more, I was flabbergasted by these results. No random fliers if I held steady .
Give them a try, they might do good. Hint; I taper crimped my loads with a 9mm Luger taper crimp die...seat and crimp in separate steps for the best results.
Gary