124gr vs 115gr in 9mm
- Thread starter Mikul
- Start date
There are two different schools of thought with regard to which bullet is best: heavy & slow or lite & fast. Both sides present very convincing arguements for their point of view and every few years the opposing side gains popularity again.
The current trend is lite & fast. Ten years ago, it was slow & heavy. Before that, it was lite. As you can see, it goes back and forth. I really don't know who's right. Thankfully, I have never been shot nor have I ever shot another human being so I do not have any first hand experience in this area. What I do is stagger my rounds (in both my pistols and my revolvers) with lite & fast and slow & heavy bullets every other round.
It may not be as effective as going 100% with the correct load (which ever one that is) but it's more effective than going 100% with the wrong load (again, which ever one that is). This may be a little off the subject, but like you, I also use to carry the 124gr Cor-Bon round.
Share what you know, learn what you don't
The current trend is lite & fast. Ten years ago, it was slow & heavy. Before that, it was lite. As you can see, it goes back and forth. I really don't know who's right. Thankfully, I have never been shot nor have I ever shot another human being so I do not have any first hand experience in this area. What I do is stagger my rounds (in both my pistols and my revolvers) with lite & fast and slow & heavy bullets every other round.
It may not be as effective as going 100% with the correct load (which ever one that is) but it's more effective than going 100% with the wrong load (again, which ever one that is). This may be a little off the subject, but like you, I also use to carry the 124gr Cor-Bon round.
Mikul, the question has multiple answers.
First, what barrel length do you have? If it's a short barrel it's recommended to use the lighter bullets so you can achieve that optimum velocity. There is a balance between bullet weight, velocity and barrel length. If you have a full size pistol with a 4-6" barrel you can use the heavier bullets effectively as they will develop the velocity necessary for the proper penetration.
For example, I carry a USP Compact 9mm and will not carry any loads heavier than the 115 due to the fairly short barrel. If I carry my full size USP then I am comfortable using the 124 grain bullets.
Bullet performance can be graphed, essentially, in the shape of a bell curve. You need to adjust the weight of the bullet to the length of the berrel to get the performace on the top portion of that curve.
Good shooting.
CMOS
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GOA, TSRA, LEAA, NRA, SAF and I vote!
First, what barrel length do you have? If it's a short barrel it's recommended to use the lighter bullets so you can achieve that optimum velocity. There is a balance between bullet weight, velocity and barrel length. If you have a full size pistol with a 4-6" barrel you can use the heavier bullets effectively as they will develop the velocity necessary for the proper penetration.
For example, I carry a USP Compact 9mm and will not carry any loads heavier than the 115 due to the fairly short barrel. If I carry my full size USP then I am comfortable using the 124 grain bullets.
Bullet performance can be graphed, essentially, in the shape of a bell curve. You need to adjust the weight of the bullet to the length of the berrel to get the performace on the top portion of that curve.
Good shooting.
CMOS
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GOA, TSRA, LEAA, NRA, SAF and I vote!
I have always been of the "good shot placement" school of thought. A well placed mouse gun round will take down a BG just as fast as a .45 round will. I also do not subscribe to the so-called "one shot stop" theory. I was taught that a well placed double tap will USUALLY do the trick, but you MUST be prepared for a possible failure to stop scenario!!
Thus, bullet weight is of less importance than it being of hollow point design.
I use Remington Golden Sabers 124gr because my guns feed them well, and they give good accuracy.
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BOYCOTT SMITH AND WESSON!!!!!
The only justice for a traitor is at the end of a rope!!!!
Off my meds (quit smoking), armed to the teeth, and loose on an unsuspecting society!!!
Thus, bullet weight is of less importance than it being of hollow point design.
I use Remington Golden Sabers 124gr because my guns feed them well, and they give good accuracy.
------------------
BOYCOTT SMITH AND WESSON!!!!!
The only justice for a traitor is at the end of a rope!!!!
Off my meds (quit smoking), armed to the teeth, and loose on an unsuspecting society!!!
CMOS, thanks for the little education. Now I have a question. Why does the barrel length effect the performance of differently weighted bullets? I thought that the barrel length was there to increase pressure and therefore velocity, regardless of bullet size.
BTW, I also carry the USP 9.
This question is really regarding practice rounds since it would be prohibitively expensive to shoot Cor-Bons every week.
BTW, I also carry the USP 9.
This question is really regarding practice rounds since it would be prohibitively expensive to shoot Cor-Bons every week.
Mikul,
Shorter barrels typically do not allow a bullet to reach it's optimum velocity... longer barrels DO. Therefore, you need to get as much velocity as you can to ensure hollowpoint expansion. Longer barrels allow for heavier bullets to achieve top velocity while shorter barrels need lighter bullets to acvhieve good velocity.
Try not to think too hard about it, it's just common sense that lighter things accelerate more quickly.
Ben
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Almost Online IM: BenK911
ICQ # 53788523
"Gun Control Is Being Able To Hit Your Target"
Shorter barrels typically do not allow a bullet to reach it's optimum velocity... longer barrels DO. Therefore, you need to get as much velocity as you can to ensure hollowpoint expansion. Longer barrels allow for heavier bullets to achieve top velocity while shorter barrels need lighter bullets to acvhieve good velocity.
Try not to think too hard about it, it's just common sense that lighter things accelerate more quickly.
Ben
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Almost Online IM: BenK911
ICQ # 53788523
"Gun Control Is Being Able To Hit Your Target"
Mikul, i'm confused by your question. you ask about 9mm practice loads and the responses are about defense loads.
well i'll respond on both sides.
for target shooting get 115gr. for the soul point that its cheaper. I just bought 1000 rounds of American Eagle 115gr from AmmoMan for $139 i think. thats not THAT great but pretty good and 124gr is more than that.
for defense it depends. for home defense i believe the faster the better. i don't want the bullets to go thru the walls or BGs. I think the best home defense 9mm round is the federal 9BPLE thats 115gr +P+. It goes pretty fast and has a great street record. Many people critisize it for its reputation for under penetrating but it does preform very well. it will only penetrate 10-12 inches and those 10-12 inches will be completely destroyed. it expands extreemly rapidly. that means that it will deliver all the shock emediately on entering. If you are worried about underpenetration with this round then put some 124gr 9mms in the last few spots in your mag incase the first few rounds don't do the trick which they should and most likely will.
for LEO/concealed carry use i prefer something a bit slower. i think the best for this is 124gr+P. It has deeper penetration for barriers or heavy clothing and still has good expansion, delivers the shock pretty quickely, and won't over penetrate much. If i had to only use 1 9mm round for all defense situations it would be the 124gr+P
i don't feel comforatable carrying any 135gr or 147gr 9mm. too slow and will fail to expand too much.
my favorite defense loads are federal hydra-shocks and speer gold-dots. they are both well proven street tested rounds.
well i'll respond on both sides.
for target shooting get 115gr. for the soul point that its cheaper. I just bought 1000 rounds of American Eagle 115gr from AmmoMan for $139 i think. thats not THAT great but pretty good and 124gr is more than that.
for defense it depends. for home defense i believe the faster the better. i don't want the bullets to go thru the walls or BGs. I think the best home defense 9mm round is the federal 9BPLE thats 115gr +P+. It goes pretty fast and has a great street record. Many people critisize it for its reputation for under penetrating but it does preform very well. it will only penetrate 10-12 inches and those 10-12 inches will be completely destroyed. it expands extreemly rapidly. that means that it will deliver all the shock emediately on entering. If you are worried about underpenetration with this round then put some 124gr 9mms in the last few spots in your mag incase the first few rounds don't do the trick which they should and most likely will.
for LEO/concealed carry use i prefer something a bit slower. i think the best for this is 124gr+P. It has deeper penetration for barriers or heavy clothing and still has good expansion, delivers the shock pretty quickely, and won't over penetrate much. If i had to only use 1 9mm round for all defense situations it would be the 124gr+P
i don't feel comforatable carrying any 135gr or 147gr 9mm. too slow and will fail to expand too much.
my favorite defense loads are federal hydra-shocks and speer gold-dots. they are both well proven street tested rounds.
In defense of big & slow... I have had good results out of 147 gr. hornady XTP. They aren't super fast, but they don't have to be. I'm getting nearly 1000 ft/sec out of them with "Hi-Skor 800X" and could go a little faster, but don't need to.
Remember. Lighter does go faster, but it also stops faster!
Heavier bullet weight also improved my groups, may not for you & your gun. I think each gun has its own preference.
In my mind its all about energy & shot placement. If your gun doesn't shoot heavy bullets well. Shoot light.
If it shoots both equally. I recommend heavy.
And you can get good expansion out of low velocity. Here is a pic of one of my 147s that I pulled from the back of a rotton stump. GREAT MUSHROOMING!!! Three times its original diameter.
Remember. Lighter does go faster, but it also stops faster!
Heavier bullet weight also improved my groups, may not for you & your gun. I think each gun has its own preference.
In my mind its all about energy & shot placement. If your gun doesn't shoot heavy bullets well. Shoot light.
If it shoots both equally. I recommend heavy.
And you can get good expansion out of low velocity. Here is a pic of one of my 147s that I pulled from the back of a rotton stump. GREAT MUSHROOMING!!! Three times its original diameter.
Thank you all for your opinions. You've certainly convinced me to alternate my carry loads which was an idea that I've been tossing around in my skull for a little while.
I'm also going to do a little experimentation. I'll get some 115, and 124 +P and 124+P+ and compare that to the 124 that I usually shoot.
My concern is that if I practice with a standard 115 load, and I'm forced to shoot in self defense, the unexpected feel of the 124 +P will send my accuracy (and most likely ME) to hell.
I'm also going to do a little experimentation. I'll get some 115, and 124 +P and 124+P+ and compare that to the 124 that I usually shoot.
My concern is that if I practice with a standard 115 load, and I'm forced to shoot in self defense, the unexpected feel of the 124 +P will send my accuracy (and most likely ME) to hell.
Mikul, you're worrying way, way too much. I have fired standard 115 gr. and Cor-Bon +P+ 115gr. loads back to back and been unable to tell the difference in recoil. Nine grains more bullet weight (a whopping 9/7000ths of a pound) will not be noticable. If you ever need to fire your weapon in self defense, you will be gripping it so tight from the excitement that you probably won't notice any recoil at all.
Will Beararms
New member
Short Barrel: 115 gr HP +P
Long Barrel: 147 gr HP Std Pressure
I prefer big guns versus the compact and you will find god buys on full-size pistols due to the compact craze.
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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."
[This message has been edited by Will Beararms (edited April 08, 2000).]
Long Barrel: 147 gr HP Std Pressure
I prefer big guns versus the compact and you will find god buys on full-size pistols due to the compact craze.
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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."
[This message has been edited by Will Beararms (edited April 08, 2000).]
Mikul - what Ben said! He gave a good explanation of the weight vs velocity theory.
I am relying on lots of discussions, opinions, suggestions and some very basic physics knowlwdge. Since there has never been a scientific study of bullet effectiveness - one that lines up a few hundred "volunteers" to be shot and disected, what the heck do we have to go on.
I believe there should be serious consideration taken to bullet weight vs barrel length. Oh yeah, here's another dimension to consider - distance of a shooting. If you're talking about CCW, it's doubtful thet you'll be shooting a BG at 30 yards away (you better hope not for the jury's sake...) so even a lighter bullet with a very high velocity at close range, where most CCW shootings take place, is going to kick maximum ass due to the velocity.
Funny thing, last week my father-in-law asked me what ammo to shoot in his P5 Compact 9mm. He had just purchased a box of Federal Hydra-shok 135 grain and I told him due to the very short barrel, ~3.1", that he should be shooting the 115 grain load. Guess he didn't like my opiniuon because he made some comment like "well I guess I'll take these back since they'll just barely be falling out the end of the barrel...". Guess he didn't get the point.
CMOS
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GOA, TSRA, LEAA, NRA, SAF and I vote!
I am relying on lots of discussions, opinions, suggestions and some very basic physics knowlwdge. Since there has never been a scientific study of bullet effectiveness - one that lines up a few hundred "volunteers" to be shot and disected, what the heck do we have to go on.
I believe there should be serious consideration taken to bullet weight vs barrel length. Oh yeah, here's another dimension to consider - distance of a shooting. If you're talking about CCW, it's doubtful thet you'll be shooting a BG at 30 yards away (you better hope not for the jury's sake...) so even a lighter bullet with a very high velocity at close range, where most CCW shootings take place, is going to kick maximum ass due to the velocity.
Funny thing, last week my father-in-law asked me what ammo to shoot in his P5 Compact 9mm. He had just purchased a box of Federal Hydra-shok 135 grain and I told him due to the very short barrel, ~3.1", that he should be shooting the 115 grain load. Guess he didn't like my opiniuon because he made some comment like "well I guess I'll take these back since they'll just barely be falling out the end of the barrel...". Guess he didn't get the point.
CMOS
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GOA, TSRA, LEAA, NRA, SAF and I vote!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CMOS:
Funny thing, last week my father-in-law asked me what ammo to shoot in his P5 Compact 9mm. He had just purchased a box of Federal Hydra-shok 135 grain and I told him due to the very short barrel, ~3.1", that he should be shooting the 115 grain load. Guess he didn't like my opiniuon because he made some comment like "well I guess I'll take these back since they'll just barely be falling out the end of the barrel...". Guess he didn't get the point.
[/quote]
The really amusing part is that your father was probably correct about the lack of performance of those 135gr HydraShok rounds! Those are the Federal PD (Personal Defense) rounds, and they're downloaded to lessen recoil, and obviously performance at the same time. Out of a short barrel, they much be pretty unimpressive.
Funny thing, last week my father-in-law asked me what ammo to shoot in his P5 Compact 9mm. He had just purchased a box of Federal Hydra-shok 135 grain and I told him due to the very short barrel, ~3.1", that he should be shooting the 115 grain load. Guess he didn't like my opiniuon because he made some comment like "well I guess I'll take these back since they'll just barely be falling out the end of the barrel...". Guess he didn't get the point.
[/quote]
The really amusing part is that your father was probably correct about the lack of performance of those 135gr HydraShok rounds! Those are the Federal PD (Personal Defense) rounds, and they're downloaded to lessen recoil, and obviously performance at the same time. Out of a short barrel, they much be pretty unimpressive.
Agent Orange
New member
Guys,
How much difference does barrel length REALLY make in a pistol? I can see the difference when you are talking about a 24 inch barreled rifle versus a 16 inch AR-15 carbine, because that would be a difference of 400 feet per second in velocity.
A one inch diference (say 4 inch barrel vs. 3 inch barrel) is only 50 feet per second! Now come on, what difference does fifty feet per second make? I am going by the Remington website ballistic info page that states 1 inch = 50fps .
Also, going by my 1 semester of college physics, it would seem that the important knockdown power stat would be muzzle energy. The greater the foot pounds of energy, the greater the "knockdown power" or damage potential (I am leaving bullet shape or composition out of the discussion, because those variables are difficult to examine). Muzzle energy is basically weight x velocity. From the ballistics I have seen the best compromise would seem to be 124 grain +P .
FWIW
How much difference does barrel length REALLY make in a pistol? I can see the difference when you are talking about a 24 inch barreled rifle versus a 16 inch AR-15 carbine, because that would be a difference of 400 feet per second in velocity.
A one inch diference (say 4 inch barrel vs. 3 inch barrel) is only 50 feet per second! Now come on, what difference does fifty feet per second make? I am going by the Remington website ballistic info page that states 1 inch = 50fps .
Also, going by my 1 semester of college physics, it would seem that the important knockdown power stat would be muzzle energy. The greater the foot pounds of energy, the greater the "knockdown power" or damage potential (I am leaving bullet shape or composition out of the discussion, because those variables are difficult to examine). Muzzle energy is basically weight x velocity. From the ballistics I have seen the best compromise would seem to be 124 grain +P .
FWIW
Agent Orange,
I'm not an expert, and I've also heard the rule of thumb that 1" of barrel adds 40-50 FPS. But this is with rifles. I think it may have a greater impact on handguns. Consider that adding 1" to a 20" rifle barrel is increasing the length by 5%. Adding 1" to a 2" pistol barrel increases its length by 50%. I think with most rifle-lenght barrels, most of the powder is burned even in a carbine-length (short) barrel. But in a short pistol barrel, I'll bet that significant unburned powder gets blown out the end of the barrel without adding to the velocity. So I think that adding an inch or two to a pistol barrel may make a significant difference in velocity (at least until you get up to a standard lenght of five or six inches or so). This is just my theory - it would be interesting to test it.
I think its possible to compensate somewhat for this by using faster powders for short-barreled handguns - but the slower powders always seem to give the maximum velocity if they have enough barrel length to be used effectively.
Doug
I'm not an expert, and I've also heard the rule of thumb that 1" of barrel adds 40-50 FPS. But this is with rifles. I think it may have a greater impact on handguns. Consider that adding 1" to a 20" rifle barrel is increasing the length by 5%. Adding 1" to a 2" pistol barrel increases its length by 50%. I think with most rifle-lenght barrels, most of the powder is burned even in a carbine-length (short) barrel. But in a short pistol barrel, I'll bet that significant unburned powder gets blown out the end of the barrel without adding to the velocity. So I think that adding an inch or two to a pistol barrel may make a significant difference in velocity (at least until you get up to a standard lenght of five or six inches or so). This is just my theory - it would be interesting to test it.
I think its possible to compensate somewhat for this by using faster powders for short-barreled handguns - but the slower powders always seem to give the maximum velocity if they have enough barrel length to be used effectively.
Doug