10mm VS .400 Cor-Bon

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FUD

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I just got done reading a report by Cpl. Ed Sanow and if I understood it correctly, the .400 Cor-Bon and a full-power 10mm push the same size/weight bullet at the same velocity. That being the case, why did Cor-Bon come out with the .400?

The 10mm initially flopped (although it seems to be regaining popularity again recently) because it was too much of a handful. Wouldn't the .400 prove to be a similar handful? Or am I missing something here since I don't seem to see any advantage of one over the other as far as the rounds themselves are concerned.

The only advantage I see with the .400 is that you can shoot it out of your .45 just by switching barrels and not having to buy another gun. Is that it?

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FUD -- Share what you know & learn what you don't.
 
Pretty much. I spoke to the cor-bon rep at a shot show a couple of years back, when they were just coming out with it. I got the impression they were jumping on the 357 sig band wagon. So they came up with the 400. Hoping to sell 40 stuff to 45 users, so you get a to for one gun.
 
The 10mm isn't the "handful" that some make it out to be. While it's possible to jolt a 200 grain bullet over 1200fps, there aren't any factory loads like that anymore. My latest load, a 135 JHP at ~1400fps, doesn't have any more kick or blast than .45 hardball, while ballistically besting the vaunted .357/125. The load data that I saw on the .400 indicated that it was about 100fps slower than a ten, with any given bullet weight. It reaches those velocities at much lower pressures than the 10, though.
 
We wanted the 400CORBON to equal the 10MM and it does so at 1/3 less pressure so 45ACP pistols could be converted without a major hassle.[Unfortuneately, some of them are still a hassle] We also wanted to take advantage of the huge craze for 40 caliber guns and since everybody has a 45 [ don't they ] it just seemed like a heck of a good idea and lots of fun to play with to boot. It has succeeded beyond our wildest expectations and we've not caught up in demand for ammo in over three years.TM
 
Let me tell you how I really feel. I think the 400 Corbon is a joke and a hoax.

First of all, it has pretty much the same exact ballistics as a 10mm, except that I know a 10mm can be pushed a lot harder (I am not sure just how hard a 400 Corbon can be pushed, but I do not see it launching a 200gr bullet to 1250fps or a 135gr bullet to 1750 fps and 918 foot pounds of energy like a 10mm can do with no signs of overpressure).

Furthermore, the 400 Corbon has a fatter body which means the magazines hold less ammo. In fact, people that use it in a Glock 21 say that that the 400 Corbon only feeds reliably from a 10 round post-ban mag. So, you can have 10 rounds of 400 Corbon or 15 rounds of 10mm.

Also, it is a bottleneck case, which means it has setback problems and one person already blew up their gun from it. And, due to the bottleneck case it is much harder to reload and more prone to damage.

It is a hoax because for one thing, the only thing really cool about the 400 Corbon is the NAME. The name itself helps sell it, it just sounds cool.
Also, Corbon downloaded their (already weak) 10mm ammo by 50 fps to make the 400 Corbon look more impressive. So, that in itself is a marketing hoax. The 10mm can go a lot faster, but if you look at Corbon's charts, they have recently reduced the 10mm velocities to make the 400 Corbon velocities look impressive (if they had not reduced the 10mm velocities, the velocities of the two cartridges would be exactly the same in their factory ammo, so in order to make the 400 Corbon look impressive and set it apart, they reduced the 10mm velocity on the chart. Otherwose people would quickly figure out that the 400 Corbon is no different or better than a 10mm).

After all that, the 400 Corbon is also fired from a customized gun rather than a stock gun, which can have it's own problems.

The 400 Corbon has a much thinner chamber wall than the 10mm. Who cares if the chamber pressures are slightly lower, when the chamber has to be bored out and have thinner chamber walls in order to fit the cartridge?
And, if pressure worries you, then bullet setback from the bottleneck case can be a real concern!

Lastly, on the pressure issue: less amount of pressure applied to a larger circumference chamber is actually no advantage, the stress is the same or worse. Personally, I would much rather have the stock 10mm with a much thicker chamber wall and less stress.

All I see with the 400 Corbon are disadvantages.
They should spend more time and money into developing good loads for the 10mm rather than trying to invent something inferior and then market it to us as an advancement.





[This message has been edited by Red Bull (edited August 09, 2000).]
 
Availability and logistics seem (to me) to have had as much of an impact on a cartridge's "success" as anything else.

Even were the 400 Corbon inferior (not saying one way or the other), it sounds to me like it's easy to convert a 45 to 400 Corbon, get INCREASED feed reliability from bottleneck cartridges (so one guy blew the reload - only every "assault rifle" cartridge is bottlenecked so it is possible).

As to capacity - an imperfect world throws that out, too. Other than in a 1911 frame, you're limited to 10 on a NEW gun. Yes, I say NEW gun, not your old Glock model 20 preban magazines - for another manufacturer to make a 10mm gun you are faced with the fact of a 10 round limit anyway.

The 10 round limit of 400 Corbon you mention is what (my apologies if I'm mistaken) WalterGAII found on HIS GLOCK. This is not a limitation of the cartridge; but of the feed ramp on the 440C aftermarket barrel for a G21 - certainly not a physical limitation if Glock were to deliberately make a dedicated 400 corb gun (although legally it would be limited to 10 as would any new gun design).

As to pressures, admittedly I've not seen a semiauto chamber burst under any circumstances. But aren't the concerns with pressure not on the chamber's failure itself but on the brass/cartridge? Primers deforming, head separation, ruptures that occur INDEPENDENT of the actual chamber failing whatsoever. Shoot near people shooting 45 and 10mm, watch the brass fly, feel how hit it is, look at the wear - there IS more punishment there.

And bullet setback? That can happen with ANY round, even though yes it' sa little harder to get the necking right. The gentleman who had the setback KB admitted he had erred bigtime.

just imho.

Battler.
 
The cartridges are not equal; the 400 CB will not handle the heavier bullets.

The 400 CB is not a 'hoax', it's a fine cartridge, giving good velocities with the 135-165g bullets, and normally delivers those bullets with great accuracy (due to the stiffer barrel?). It also offers 1911/45ACP shooters the option of firing a cartridge that emulates .357 Magnum ballistics in a bigger bore, i.e., a 135g JHP at 1400-1550fps.

It rocks. But it should be understood that it is a 'hobby' cartridge, and will probably never enter the mainstream of defensive calibers.

Thank you CorBon for giving us a fine new cartridge.

------------------
"All my ammo is factory ammo"
 
Good point.

But I will assert (and get flamed to death). . . isn't the 10mm a bit of a hobby cartridge too?

You can shoot heavier weights through the delta elite - until the gun gets smashed to bits. And the stuff IS pretty rare, as are gun models that use it.

And the only times I have seen people shooting it they are shooting it in "40S&W with large-pistol primer" mode :)

Battler.

[This message has been edited by Battler (edited August 09, 2000).]
 
The 10mm is _not_ a hobby cartridge.

It is a standard chambering in three factory produced firearms (currently). No barrel swaping and magazine testing required.

Virtually all ammo companies (both big and little) load for it. Most of the modern HP designs are available. Practice ammo can be had for a cost differential relative to 45 that is less than the difference between 9mm and 45.

Good on line stores have 10mm supplies and reloading equipment in stock.

The 10 is the round for the cognoscente and is destined to be under appreciated by the masses as long as the masses remain in their current, deplorable, condition.
 
If a handgunner can't handle a 10mm, I feel pity for them. The 10mm is a great cartridge. It's the only auto round I feel comfortable shooting for hunting uses. If the 10mm is a hobby cartridge then so is ever other handgun cartridge. The 10mm is the benchmark that all other auto cartridges are judged by. BTW, I don't even own a 10mm.....yet. I do want to get a .400 Corbon to go in my Gold Cup, but I want to see how the 1911 handle it for a little longer.
 
Highly recommend minimum 18.5lb recoil spring in 1911-pattern guns when shooting 400 CB.
Suggest even heavier (based on specific loads used) spring.

Fired mine indoors, never found the cases!


ps the 10mm is here to stay (and hoping the 41AE is, too)

------------------
"All my ammo is factory ammo"
 
My daily CCW G29 stays loaded with CorBon 135gr in the shop, 175gr Silvertips elsewhere, and I've just picked up a couple boxes of Triton's 1400fps/674fpe 155gr QuikShoks as potential replacements for the CorBons (at least until CorBon starts pushing them at real velocities again).

"Hobby cartridge", my tuchas. :D

------------------
"..but never ever Fear. Fear is for the enemy. Fear and Bullets."
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!
 
There has never been a single problem with the 10mm and pressure anyway, so the 400 Corbon is a solution to a problem that never existed. It is great and all that the 400 Corbon lauches the lighter bullets at lower pressures, but who cares, it was never a problem in the first place.
Anyone that reloads 10mm knows that it handles it's charges very well, and brass lasts forever. Chambers are fully supported, brass is thick and never wears out, and I have never ever heard of one solitary problem with the 10mm regarding it's pressure. (The pressure of the 10mm is about the same as many other common pistol cartridges, so it is not like it is high anyway). So why fix something that ain't broke?

Regarding frame battering...newsflash: Chamber pressure has no direct corelation with frame battering. Frame battering is a power factor issue and slide velocity issue. In other words, if you think that a 10mm is tough on a gun, then the 400 Corbon is going to be just as tough.
A 1911 .45 firing 400 Corbon is going to fare no better than a Colt Delta Elite 10mm. In fact, the Delta Elite is at least made for the round it is being used for, so it is better off.
The 400 Corbon is going to be just as rough on a gun as a 10mm, as long as it is firing the same size bullet at the same velocity.

With the 400 Corbon, you get all the ballistics of a light-bullet 10mm, but all of the problems of a bottleneck case and less capacity etc etc etc.
Why not just get a 10mm and have none of the drawbacks, while able to launch heavier bullets faster if you so wish?

Being that 400 Corbon is never going to go mainstream, then that means you are left buying very expensive and exclusive ammo, or reloading for it. If you are going to go through all that trouble for 10mm ballistics...then why not just buy a 10mm and have more ammo selection, common ammo, cheaper ammo, etc?
Furthermore, if you are going to get into reloading, to save money, then why not just get a 10mm, and reload the straight-walled cartridge MUCH easier and cheaper, with more common components.


I suppose the 400 Corbon is good for people that want to convert a .45 to a 10mm....but in that case, why didn't they just do it right the first time and buy a 10mm! ;)

I also just do not see any advantages to going with a wildcat bottleneck cartridge which only imitates (poorly) the ballistics of a common cartridge that is already on the market.
The 10mm already does the same job, but better.




[This message has been edited by DerGlockenpooper (edited August 10, 2000).]
 
If you want to approach the performance of the "vaunted" .357 mag, why go to all that trouble? Just shoot mild loads in a .357. Current Winchester data shows a moderate pressure load for the .357, 125gr at 1800fps for 899 ft/lbs. At the other end another of their moderate pressure loads puts a 200gr out at 1335fps for 791 ft/lbs. These two loads are nearly 10,000 psi below their "hot" loads.

Sam...my favorite 9mm is the 9X32R
 
.400 Cor-Bon is definitely a "hobby" cartridge for me. So are .223; .243; .45ACP, etc., etc., ad infinitum. Since shooting is purely a hobby, and not a business for me, then I don't get hung up with catchy names for particular cartridges.

I shoot .400 Cor-Bon from a 70 Series Gold Cup, using a threaded, compensated Accu-Match barrel. Recoil is about like 9mm. Have to use a 16# spring for realiable cycling.

I also have .400 Cor-Bon barrels for my G30 and G21. I have an extended, ported barrel for the G30, and both compensated and non-compensated barrels for the G21. Had one of my .400 barrels reamed out to .40 Super. Still trying to decide whether I want to pursue .40 Super any further, as dies are impossible to find. (Also, I'm getting .008" brass expansion with my reamed barrel. Triton says that much expansion is o.k., but it's a lot more than any other cartridge that I shoot.

I like .45 ACP. Would never have bought a 10mm. Just went to .400 Cor-Bon and .40 Super as an extension of my "hobby".
 
I read some article somewhere (I'm sure someone will post a link) that said that the .45 and the 400Corbon combo is better than the .40 and .357Sig combo.

Whatever. Look, if you have a .45, and want a bit of spice, then the 400Corbon is great. For a barrel swap, you have 2:1. Pressure this, pressure that.... So what? If you don't like it, don't shoot it. But I will say one thing, everybody who makes critical comments wouldn't want to be caught on the wrong side of the barrel of a 400Corbon. That's a fact.

So is it a 10mm? No. Is it close to 10mm performances for not a 10mm price? Yes. So will it have a nitch market? Yes. Does the necked down give it a more reliable feeding? Yes. So is it a good round? For those who love it, yes it is.

Please don't bash a round, it's not worth it. Time will tell which rounds are going to live and which are going to die.

I personally like the .40/.357Sig combo much better, but that's my opinion.

Albert
 
Mississippi rifleman, have you though of converting that colt to a 45 super? It would be cheaper for you and a 230 gr. bullet at 1100+fps. is not bad. Oh and 13" of wet phone book with a 2.5" hole out the other side is not bad. You would most likly only need the springs.
 
This is only tangentially related, but are the Corbon 400 setback issues about the same as the 357 SIG setback issues? Are there bottlenecked pistol cartridges that don't suffer from setback issues? Does anyone manufacture a single action 357 SIG pistol?

Thanks,

Munir
 
I recently converted my Glock 21 to .40 super. I had Irv Stone Jr. fit a Bar-sto barrel and got Wolff recoil springs and their steel guide rod. Triton 200 gr. JHPs are supposed to exit at 1300 fps. This is close to .41 magnum. (210 gr/1300 fps). I haven't shot it yet as I'm still waiting on the springs. Why did I do this? In politically correct California, a person can only have 3 guns on their CCW. So when I run in black bear country, I can still carry a concealed pistol.
 
I'm not sure that this will add much if anything to the points already raised, but I had a chance to get a G21 set up for .400 Cor-Bon and passed. Not that I have anything against the .400! But I also have a G20 that's a genuine pleasure to shoot, and it seemed redundant to go with a .400 pistol when I already had a 10mm I was happy with. JMHO.
 
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