10mm equals .41 Mag....NO!

S

samsmix

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I own, like, and use a 10mm. That said, could someone please tell me why, with 30% less energy in top end loads, people think the 10mm is a ".41magnum class round"?

Is the .308 a "300 Win Mag class round"?
Is the .38 Spl a ".357 mag class round"?

It is a good cartridge. I am fond of it...but come on!
 
I own, like, and use a 10mm. That said, could someone please tell me why, with 30% less energy in top end loads, people think the 10mm is a ".41magnum class round"?
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Depends on which specific loads you're comparing.

Winchester's 175gn STHP in .41 Mag is doing a paltry 1250fps, while Winny's 10mm 175gn STHP is doing an alleged 1290fps.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2...on-10mm-auto-175-grain-silvertip-hollow-point

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2...ngton-magnum-175-grain-silvertip-hollow-point

In truth, there's a cross-over point between the hottest 10mm ammo and the milder .41 Mag ammo. A hot 10mm load, in other words, can reach into the low-end of .41 Mag territory, but that's about it. The 10mm can't compete with mid-range and full-throttle .41 Mag loads.

The better comparison to the .41 Mag would be the fps/fpe specs of the 10mm Magnum, but that's a different cartridge and a whole different story. See, e.g.:

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt10mag.htm

Always enjoyed Taffin's take-away comment on the 10mm Magnum:

Anything the .41 Magnum can do, the 10 Magnum can also do and perhaps do it even a little faster and a little better. That is a tough confession for an old sixgun man to make.
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But yeah, calling the 10mm AUTO a "41 Mag class" cartridge is a bit of advertising hyperbole.
 
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It must be because a guy I work with said it also equals the 44 magnum. That is, with loads like Buffalo Bore, never mind that there are Buffalo Bore 44 mag loads also:eek:.

Comparing lower performance loads for a given cartridge (41 mag) with high performance loads from another (10mm) is just silly, keep it apples and apples.
 
Northof50, I guess I was just ranting. I saw some other 10mm thread with all sorts of wild claims.

My wife DOES carry one in bear country, but that's as second fiddle to bear spray, AND because she isn't able to pack larger comfortably. Certainly not because she or I believe it to be a. 41's equal.
 
Samsmix - been there. About the only way the 10 is equal to the 41 is in the intent of the round - and their outcome. As the 41 was to bridge the gap between 357 and the 44, the 10 was to end the 9 vs 45 debate. Both went on to be more powerful than practical. Remington went on a tare and pumped the heck out of the 41 while SW put it in their N frame. Cooper pushed the 10 to end the debate of the semi-auto.

Also, both are great cartridges for the handloader. The 10 will easily do 1400fps with a 180 and the 41 is right up there with the 44, albeit it suffers from a lack of large bullet selection.
 
Well, when you think about the total amount of foot pounds of energy that 15 rounds of 10mm has compared to 6 rounds of .41 Magnum, 10mm is actually superior to .41 Mag.
 
10mm equals .41 Mag....NO!
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If fired from the same barrel lengths, YES. A Glock 20 with a 4.5" barrel will shoot 200 gr Double Tap ammo at 1300 fps. Yes, I shot it over my chronograph and got 1315 fps from my pistol. I get 1250 fps from a 3 3/4" G29.

Most ballistics charts show a 210 gr 41 magnum bullet at around 1550 fps from an 8" test barrel. Fire that ammo through a 4" barrel on a real revolver with a cylinder gap and you'll do good to see 1300 fps. These guys just barely got 1200 fps from a S&W 57 with a 4" barrel

http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/41mag.html
 
If I remember the ballistic data correctly, there is a bit of overlap between spicy 10mm loads and weaker .41 magnum loads. .41 blows by 10mm when loaded to its full potential, though.

It's like comparing a Honda Civic to a Dodge Challenger. Sure, the Civic is hauling some a** at top speed, but the Challenger is capable of much higher speeds.
 
I own, like, and use a 10mm. That said, could someone please tell me why, with 30% less energy in top end loads, people think the 10mm is a ".41magnum class round"?
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For the same reason that so many people state that, ".444 Marlin is just a glorified .44 Mag."
Or, ".30-30 is a peashooter, compared to .30-06."


Generally, that reason is not idiocy, stupidity, cartridge loyalty, or arrogance. It is simply ignorance and an unwillingness to learn.
 
Most ballistics charts show a 210 gr 41 magnum bullet at around 1550 fps from an 8" test barrel. Fire that ammo through a 4" barrel on a real revolver with a cylinder gap and you'll do good to see 1300 fps. These guys just barely got 1200 fps from a S&W 57 with a 4" barrel
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Yeah, no question, barrel length matters, ... and cartridge comparisons often get skewed because guys argue over fps/fpe data derived from loads fired and chronographed out of pistols having different barrel lengths.

As far as the .41 Mag (I have a S&W Model 58), it suffers from the same ballistics problem as the .357 Mag, which is that both cartridges sacrifice a lot of their velocity and terminal-energy advantage when fired from barrels of 4" or less. Of course, the trade-off (in theory, anyway) is that a shorter barrel on a large(r)-frame magnum revolver enhances portability.

One can argue whether the optimum barrel length for such magnums should be 5", 6", or 8", but ballistically speaking, short-barrelled .357 & .41 mags are barely competitive with 4.25", 4.6", and 5" 10mm pistols firing full-throttle 10mm loads.
 
Barrel length certainly does matter. My Wife's G29 will be getting a 6" barrel this summer. Trying to keep the weight down and the velocity up, with Buffalo Bore 220gr hard cast.
 
Aside from just general misinformation and dumb comparisons, the 10mm is a pretty big hog at the autoloading trough, when compared to other typical autoloader cartridges. There are other similarities, mostly superficial... it's an orphan like the .41, it was developed to bridge the gap between two different rounds for LE purposes (ostensibly) and was found to be too powerful or hard to handle, like the .41.

The 10mm is All That and a bag of chips... in a standard size handgun. Until you go beyond that (think Wildey, Desert Eagle, AutoMag, etc) does the 10mm get eclipsed by true Magnum-level rounds.
 
Fire that ammo through a 4" barrel on a real revolver with a cylinder gap and you'll do good to see 1300 fps
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Don't forget that a 4" revolver has the same effective barrel length as a 5" auto pistol.
I chrono'd .45 ACP through both a 3" revolver and a 4.25" Commander, and those rounds went faster through the revo.
 
I think some other big factors are:
(I think all of these still fall under ignorance and an unwillingness to learn, as well...)

1. A lot of people really don't have experience with either cartridge.
Most people have not shot a 10mm (in any form), and even fewer have shot a .41 Mag. Still fewer have shot both. So, most of what they know, they read on the internet (or from the former "Air Force Special Operations Police Instructor" -- also a Medal of Honor and Distinguished Flying Cross winner - trying to enlighten everyone at the gun store by incessantly spewing filth from his face hole). (Don't worry. If you missed him, he'll be back with his own bar stool from 1-6 pm Mon-Thu next week.)

2. Some people have a very difficult time looking past their own uses or desires for cartridges and/or firearms.
If I only punch paper with a 9mm and a .22 LR, then 10mm and .41 Mag are going to be the same to me: Unnecessarily punishing and wasteful.
Along similar lines, a lot of people like "light for caliber" bullets in nearly everything they shoot, while other people use everything or like "heavy for caliber" bullets. Those habits/preferences can be difficult for some people to get away from when comparing things.

3. People get stuck on stereotypes and gun rag misconceptions.
Myself and a few other people on the MarlinOwners forums built ourselves some .307 Winchesters on Marlin 336s in the last couple years. Dozens and dozens of otherwise seemingly knowledgeable shooters could not get away from the age-old stereotype that the cartridge is barely a step up from .30-30. We pounded into their heads that it comes close to, and sometimes even exceeds .308 Win velocities from 20-inch barrels with 180 gr bullets (and greatly exceeds .30-30), and that 150 gr bullets were only a little bit shy of .308 Win ... while running notably lower chamber pressure. But, the lemmings continue to follow the writings of their infallible gun rag favorites. Now, Hornady has a 160 gr load with a muzzle velocity that matches or exceeds a great number of .308 Win factory loads, and it's being viewed as, quite literally, a "myth" by the guys that still buy into the stereotype.

(I'll be honest and say that my particular rifle is way down on velocity. It is, in fact, not much of a step up from .30-30. But they aren't all like that. I just happened to roll craps while the rest of the guys got lucky. Every barrel is an island unto itself... :rolleyes:)
 
loads

Seems as when the .41 Mag first came out there were two loads, a jacketed bullet intended for sport/hunting, and a milder lead SWC that was a "police" load. As has been pointed out, hot 10mm ammo runs closely on the heels if not exceeding some .41 loads, ever since.

When the 10mm hit the scene, the 10mm was quickly compared to the .41. Honestly though, I can't recall too many folks at that time claiming the 10mm auto as the equal of the .41. REcently though, with boutique 10mm ammo, and new pistols chambered in the caliber, and any mainstream interest in the .41 long since past, it has seemed in vogue to claim the two equal.

Which, when all up, they are not.
 
FWIW- I had a guy tell me his 9mm CZ had the same stopping power as my S&W 66 (357 mag). Told him "only if you dump the whole magazine"...he avoids me at the range now....lol
 
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