1 7/8" Snub-nose and 110 gr .38 Special Hydra-Shok® JHP (non+P)

A long time ago, our (Treasury Dept) issue ammo was the Q4070 load - 110g JHP at 1,000 FPS from a S&W Chief's Special (1.75" barrel). It was known to stop bad guys, but not kill them. This, BTW, was the first +P+ load. I carried it with confidence for years. In fact I cronoed a few rounds last year, got around 997 FPS from my M60.

Are there better loads? Probably. Is it suitable for defense? I think so.
 
These days in 110 grain snub loads, the best may well be the DPX/Barnes Bullet by Corbon. See the write up if you have not already by Stephen Camp at highpowersandguns.com.

I would recommend the Speer 135 grain GDSB load over the Federal load any day of the week.

Still having reservations about the Hornady Critical Defense round in that weight. Totally unfounded, I just haven't shot tested any. The theory is good, and it could be the best thing going in a 110 grain hollow point load.
 
The older 110grn .38 JHP loadings like the Federal Hydra-Shoks and Winchester Silvertips were some of the earlier attempts at getting a standard pressure .38 that would reliably expand. Basically, with the JHP technology of the time, you had to use either a very light-for-caliber bullet (110grn) to get enough speed to reliably expand at non-+P pressure or a dead-soft lead bullet (Federal NyClad) in order to get expansion at lower velocities. The problem was (and still is) that both of these solutions typically give you expansion at the cost of adequate penetration. It was for this reason that the standard-pressure .38 was largely abandoned as a defensive cartridge and most of the newer loadings developed for .38 +P.

Unfortunately for those who must stick with standard-pressure loadings either because they are recoil sensitive or their gun is not rated for +P ammo, the selection of good standard-pressure .38's is rather limited. Personally, the only standard pressure .38 loadings I would trust would be either Buffalo Bore's 158grn LSWCHP or Hornady's 110grn Critical Defense. The Buffalo Bore seems to give the better performance of the two, but that performance comes at the price of significantly more recoil. The Hornady, while still a bit shallow penetrating for my taste, seem to be better than just about any other 110grn .38 loading at will not beat up the gun or the shooter.

If whoever asking the question could use +P ammo, the three best choices, IMHO, are Buffalo Bore 158grn LSWCHP +P, Remington 158grn LSWCHP +P, and Speer 135grn +P SBGD.
 
The only 110gr standard pressure expander I have any love for right now is Hornady's Critical Defense 110. The Federal 110 is a huge steaming bag of underpowered fail, clocking less than 750fps from a snub. Pathetic in a 110 even at "standard pressure". Federal wimps out again.
 
Belly to belly distance, (under 10'), it will be fine. I prefer heavier bullets myself but the boogerman will not know the difference.
 
The Devil needs an Advocate.....

Southern Shooter said:
"She is somewhat recoil sensative so that may be why she chose this ammunition."
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The round may not be an optimal dragon-slayer out of a 5-shot J-frame, but if she shoots some moron 5 times with it I suspect it will change his mind pretty fast.

The trick for people who are recoil sensitive, IMHO, is not to get the heaviest recoiling round available, but to practice until they can hit someone 5 times with whatever round they can shoot proficiently.

YMMV.
 
I'd worry about the round being able to penetrate enough, but I haven't tested it nor have I seen any such test. When I carried non plus P in an older J frame I found some decent standard pressure loads with light recoil, just can't remember which one I ended up carrying.
 
The 110 grain Federal load may be one reason why some old skoolers thought they were better off shooting 148 grain wadcutters than ball or hollowpoints. They may have been right, and this may still be the case at close ranges.

Hornady Critical Defense continues to get good reports. It could be the future. Does anyone know if that little red plastic hollowpoint filler is only intended to penetrate clothing, or does it aid in bullet expansion also?
 
Does anyone know if that little red plastic hollowpoint filler is only intended to penetrate clothing, or does it aid in bullet expansion also?
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The rubber plug is supposed to squish and start the expansion process. This is a "pre-clogged hollowpoint" loosely similar to the Cor-Bon Pow'R'Ball. The concept is sound and the early tests I've seen says Hornady has done a pretty good job, esp. at standard pressures. Certainly better than any 38 or 38+P they had before; they were trying to press the XTP series into this role and it was a major pile of fail...that's a high-speed-only slug that needs 357 velocities.
 
Indeed, Hornady does associate the plastic insert with expansion near the end of this video. This ammo may reach full expansion earlier on account of not having to blow cloth out of the hollow point first, which might explain why these rounds do not penetrate as deep as conventional ammo in cloth over jello tests. Not sure how that translates to shooting a human, where clothing, flesh and bone may all be hit before entering the interior of the body. I for one don't buy the notion that hollow points expand well and consistently under such field conditions. This flex-tip Hornady ammunition conceivably might perform better by excluding materials which may hinder expansion.

The first few seconds are a hoot. Notice she never pulls the trigger. The guy probably turned and ran when he saw all those little red plastic inserts in the bullets staring at him. They do add a nice intimidating touch.

http://www.hornady.com/store/critical_defense/?page=2
 
Well Cor-Bon got it to work, so...yeah, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with the concept.

When the LeverRevolution round came out, I wondered if the rubber tip could be chopped flush to improve low-speed performance. That's more or less exactly what they did, no doubt tweaking other stuff to make 'em work as subsonics.
 
Buffalo Bore offers up some really great standard pressure loads for the .38spl. Their 158gr lead semi-wadcutter hollow core is a good round. It does fragment sometimes though.

The other option is their 125gr "low velocity" JHP. It still manages nearly 920ft/sec in a snub nose. It also expands reliably and pentrates pretty well.

Either option is going to kick more than the 110gr Federal. I don't think it will be enough of a difference to impare or hurt the shooter.
 
I bought some of those "Low recoil" rounds, they still are snappy.

I bought some for an elderly (81) lady with arthritis, but she liked shooting the 147g wadcutters (38s) much better, so I loaded up her .357 snub with those.

They work.
 

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I would think the 110 gr. Hydra Shoks might be decent defense rounds, though I personally prefer a bit heavier bullet. The Hydra Shok design is different than those of the old Treasury loads. Take a look at the ballistic gel tests on 90 grain Hydra Shoks in .380 here -- http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175606 (note: I seem to recall some other gel tests where the performance was not quite as good).

As you can see, penetration is right around the "magic" 12 inches with pretty decent expansion. I see no reason the 110 gr. bullet wouldn't perform as well if you can get muzzle velocity at 850 fps or better. I'm not sure the bullet will do that from a snubby but you probably can from a four inch barrel.

In a standard pressure load, the 148 grain wadcutter has been a proven round for many years. Not any expansion to speak of but good penetration and the profile of the bullet seems to create more wound damage than a round nose.

Added: I see where Mr. Camp was able to get 877 fps from this load from his snubby. http://shooterslegacy.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7709. It does appear there was some jacket separation in newsprint. Penetration will be less in newsprint than in ballistic gel.

I believe in being a bit conservative in ammo selection so I would stick to 148 gr. wadcutters in standard pressure ammo for a snubby.
 
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I bought some for an elderly (81) lady with arthritis, but she liked shooting the 147g wadcutters (38s) much better
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I have shot both the 147 wadcutters and the standard pressure BB's. While there is a difference in felt recoil during normal range shooting, I seriously doubt recoil would be noticed during a SD situation. I would only go with the standard pressure 158gr BB rounds in a snubby.
 
KyJim: if somebody clocked the Federal 110s at 850+ from a snub it'll be the first I've heard of it. Wouldn't terribly surprise me if the speeds vary by lot.

Sigh.

Look...for as long as I've been tracking ammo speeds and performance, Federal loads 'em light. With a big exception: anything meant purely for police use they crank up hard.

I mostly detest Federal. I'll be the first to admit: the HST loads meant for law enforcement (and not even listed on their website!) are potent loads, in some categories the best you can get. The 9mm HST 147 is flat amazing.

There's nothing in 38Spl or 357 that I'd willingly use unless there was no other choice.
 
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